Anyone still want to make a compelling argument against rebuilding?

[Sports Guy]

Way to miss the point. Read his second sentence.

There is nothing about recognizing a need for a significant bat or two that is incompatible with "rebuilding". It's just incompatible with your extreme definition of rebuilding, which seems to call for turning over 80% of the starting line-up in one winter.

As always, you miss the point.

The bottom line is there are a lot of people on here who don't feel we need to rebuild....That we can just add to what we have.

That is what i was talking about.

[Sports Guy]

Sure.

Under Trembley in July the team went 15-10.

The team scored 4.84 runs per game in 25 games.

The team ERA was 4.13 for the month.

In August the team is 8-17.

The team has scored 4.8 runs per games in 25 games.

The team's ERA is 6.83 for the month. The problem has been in large part the bullpen.

Fix the bullpen and you have a winning team.

^^^^^^^^^

Exhibit A of what i am talking about.

[Fan4Life]

As always, you miss the point.

The bottom line is there are a lot of people on here who don't feel we need to rebuild....That we can just add to what we have.

That is what i was talking about.

Who is excluded from a rebuild process, Markakis, Loewen, GUTS? Anyone else?

[O no]

My idea of rebuilding would be

Trade

Roberts

Tejeda

Ramon

Mora-if possible

Payton

Walker

Bradford

Release/trade for anything

Gibbons

Baez

Do not pursue

Cpat

Millar

Benson's option

[RShack]

^^^^^^^^^

Exhibit A of what i am talking about.

Maybe. In fairness, what he said was "fix the bullpen and you have a winning team". I think that's true for this year's team, but it's not the same thing as "fix the bullpen and you have a contender".

Can we agree that most agree that the team needs to get both younger and better, and that the greatest disagreement lies in exactly what people mean by "rebuilding"?

[wildcard]

You're right. If Millar, Hernandez, Payton, Tejada, Roberts, Huff, and Mora buck the trends and don't fall off next year. If Bedard and Guthrie continue to pitch as well as any two starters in the majors. If the Orioles can find a center fielder. If they can capably find someone to take Trachsel's innings. If July is somehow more representative of this team's ability than the other four months of the season. If, if, if, if...

If they don't make major changes at key positions this winter they'll have lost ground compared to spring 2007. They'll be older at many spots, while hoping that everything falls into place so they can win 82 games.

Where do you, SG and Greg think you are going with the blow in up approach? If you trade, Bedard, Roberts and Miggy (if he keep hitting) then all you have done is create massive holes at leadoff hitter, #1 starter and your best hitter. What does that accomplish?

It is still all about the O's management making smart choices. Just because you get younger does not mean better or more successful. Trading for unproven players is a crap shoot. You are likely to lose in those trades as much as you win.

If you work with the known or proven you have a much better chance of success. Roberts is proven. Bedard is proven. Miggy is proven but needs to show he will continue on a productive track over the next month.

Look at what is going on with Hoey, Burres and Olson. There is talent there but when will it mature. Will it turn out to be Markakis or Bigbie? Bedard or Riley? That is what you will be trading for when you trade for younger players. The unknown, the unproven.

Jon, you point out the ifs, and rightfully so, but if you trade the proven players, the ones that you know what to expect production out of then the ifs double or triple with younger players.

I am not saying that the O's don't need a continual flow of young players. Every successful team does. But you don't blow it up, trade the proven players that you count on to produce. You keep your core, trade smartly, sign FA, draft well, and pick up players on the waiver wire.

Blow it up doesn't put you ahead. It put you further behind because it doubles and triples your ifssssss.

[Frobby]

I'm going to be honest -- I don't know what this team should do. They need to rebuild, but frankly, they aren't in a very good position to do so. They only have 3-4 players who can bring back quality prospects, and even if all those guys are traded, the prospects we receive, plus the ones in the pipeline, won't be enough to form a championship level team in a few years. The free agent market seems to get thinner and thinner the last 3-4 years, with people bidding up mediocre players to astronomical levels and very few franchise-changers on the market.

I really feel we may be damned if we do and damned if we don't.

[Sports Guy]

Where do you, SG and Greg think you are going with the blow in up approach?

A better future.

If you trade, Bedard, Roberts and Miggy (if he keep hitting) then all you have done is create massive holes at leadoff hitter, #1 starter and your best hitter. What does that accomplish?

What do you accomplish by keeping them? What have they done for us?

It is still all about the O's management making smart choices. Just because you get younger does not mean better or more successful. Trading for unproven players is a crap shoot. You are likely to lose in those trades as much as you win.

But you are also more likely to set yourself up better long term because you are shedding salary, getting younger and getting more talented players.

If you work with the known or proven you have a much better chance of success. Roberts is proven. Bedard is proven. Miggy is proven but needs to show he will continue on a productive track over the next month

.Yes they are but what has also been proven is that we can't win with them. What has been proven is that we aren't close to winning with them.

Look at what is going on with Hoey, Burres and Olson

Not sure lumping in Burres with those 2 makes much sense...Plus Burres is probably hurt. Olson and Hoey will be fine. For you to think these guys should just come up and dominate is ridiculous.

Jon, you point out the ifs, and rightfully so, but if you trade the proven players, the ones that you know what to expect production out of then the ifs double or triple with younger players.

You are looking at this totally wrong....No one is saying you are trading Tejada, BRob and Bedard and easily replacing them....What we want is more talented, younger players...We want more depth on the team and organization...It needs to be more balanced. The team has a ton of holes.

I am not saying that the O's don't need a continual flow of young players. Every successful team does. But you don't blow it up, trade the proven players that you count on to produce. You keep your core, trade smartly, sign FA, draft well, and pick up players on the waiver wire.

We have kept our core for years and we are getting nothing out of it...At some point, you need to wake up and see what is going on.

[clapdiddy]

My feeling is that if we go with unproven talent and we lose, it isn't really that big of a deal at this point.

We need to face some facts. Big name free agents are not going to come here. We also need to realize that building this team with guys like Jay Payton, Aubrey Huff, Danys Baez, and Steve Trachsel isn't working and WON'T work. These guys are role players (at best) on other teams. We are counting on them to be major contributors.

The best alternative would be to acquire as many young players as possible. Throw them to the wolves for a season, and determine which guys will cut it, and which won't. Use next season as an audition. Trembley has worked with young guys for years...it should be right up his alley to get some young guys he can mold into a cohesive unit.

[Sports Guy]

I'm going to be honest -- I don't know what this team should do. They need to rebuild, but frankly, they aren't in a very good position to do so. They only have 3-4 players who can bring back quality prospects, and even if all those guys are traded, the prospects we receive, plus the ones in the pipeline, won't be enough to form a championship level team in a few years. The free agent market seems to get thinner and thinner the last 3-4 years, with people bidding up mediocre players to astronomical levels and very few franchise-changers on the market.

I really feel we may be damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Why not???

[Fan4Life]

I wouldn't eactly say our core hasn't gotten us anywhere and is a reason to try and exchange them for more talent down the road.... the core is/has been doing well.. the problem has been the bullpen and lack of a true #4 hitter, and that the core we have can't overcome those holes.

[RShack]

I'm going to be honest -- I don't know what this team should do. They need to rebuild, but frankly, they aren't in a very good position to do so. They only have 3-4 players who can bring back quality prospects, and even if all those guys are traded, the prospects we receive, plus the ones in the pipeline, won't be enough to form a championship level team in a few years. The free agent market seems to get thinner and thinner the last 3-4 years, with people bidding up mediocre players to astronomical levels and very few franchise-changers on the market.

I really feel we may be damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Which is one of several reasons why I'm glad that I don't have the GM's job. Some folks think it's easy. I don't. It has me particularly interested in seeing what AM does.

[Sports Guy]

Which is one of several reasons why I'm glad that I don't have the GM's job. Some folks think it's easy. I don't. It has me particularly interested in seeing what AM does.

There are several people on this board with harder jobs than being a GM.

[DrungoHazewood]

Where do you, SG and Greg think you are going with the blow in up approach? If you trade, Bedard, Roberts and Miggy (if he keep hitting) then all you have done is create massive holes at leadoff hitter, #1 starter and your best hitter. What does that accomplish?

An infusion of young, cheap talent that hopefully won't begin its decline until many years down the road. Trading Tejada, Roberts, and Bedard could, and should, bring back a warehouse full of top prospects that have the potential to fill any number of holes for years to come.

Is it 100% certain to work? Of course not. There will certainly be prospects who don't pan out. But we've been keeping our Bedards, Tejadas, and Roberts for 10+ years now and it's provided an almost 100% guarantee of failure.

[tywright]

I'm going to be honest -- I don't know what this team should do. They need to rebuild, but frankly, they aren't in a very good position to do so. They only have 3-4 players who can bring back quality prospects, and even if all those guys are traded, the prospects we receive, plus the ones in the pipeline, won't be enough to form a championship level team in a few years. The free agent market seems to get thinner and thinner the last 3-4 years, with people bidding up mediocre players to astronomical levels and very few franchise-changers on the market.

I really feel we may be damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I agree, we're at least 2 years away from having some of our top talents (Rowell, Erbe, Wieters) from producing. However, I think we can target some prospects who have progressed more (i.e. Lillibridge) who can fill the needs that won't be address by the graduation of our prospects. Lillibridge and hopefully our future CF will be entering their prime when our prospects finally get their shot. And hopefully Tex will be our 1B as well