What is your dollar limit for FA in 2009?

[El Gordo]

Most assuredly , that's part of being in the union. You don't just get to take the perks and then be like, nah, I'm going to do what I want anyway.

If it was a difference of 1 million dollars total, no they wouldn't bother, but 1 million a year, you bet your bum. Why do you think Melvin Mora cost what he did for the O's? Because he was a 3b like no other? No, because they had to pay more, it seems pretty obvious the Orioles could have made a smaller offer and gotten him to stay. It's not like he didn't want to be here.

Are you connected with the Players Union in some way? Do you have some source material to back this up, or are you just pulling this out of your Kyber Pass? I have never heard of a single instance of the Union compelling a player to sign for any contract. The worst I've heard is Mussina having to face the dreaded evil "ire of Glavine".:rolleyestf:

[waroriole]

Are you connected with the Players Union in some way? Do you have some source material to back this up, or are you just pulling this out of your Kyber Pass? I have never heard of a single instance of the Union compelling a player to sign for any contract. The worst I've heard is Mussina having to face the dreaded evil "ire of Glavine".:rolleyestf:

I suppose you have an example of a "premium" player taking less money to play for a team that he wants to play for.

[PitchingWins]

Are you connected with the Players Union in some way? Do you have some source material to back this up, or are you just pulling this out of your Kyber Pass? I have never heard of a single instance of the Union compelling a player to sign for any contract. The worst I've heard is Mussina having to face the dreaded evil "ire of Glavine".:rolleyestf:

What is it that you think Unions do?

[El Gordo]

I suppose you have an example of a "premium" player taking less money to play for a team that he wants to play for.

You don't think it has ever happened? Carlos Lee comes to mind, Konerko, and Vlad are also examples. Of course we have Looper from last FA season, but he's not "premium", as if that would matter to the players Union. And didn't Mussina give the O's a home town discount when he certainly could have gotten more on the FA market.

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[PitchingWins]

As I stated before, Melvin Mora, Tom Glavine.

[RShack]

IMO, no brand-name hitter is coming here until *after* the kid-P's and our C amount to something. All the stuff about up-and-coming potential carries about zilch weight, and that's true no matter how much wining-and-dining gets done. One year of the kid's actually doing it, rather than rumors about their ability, will make a very big diff in how BAL looks to FA's. Hell, fans here wanna see it happen instead of just promises, and there's no reason to think a player with no ties to the O's would be more enthused about it than we are. So, in the meantime, it's not just a matter of over-paying to get somebody good to come here, it's a matter of over-paying by several truckloads of money. I don't think that's gonna happen, nor do I think it should. Even if you do that, then you're getting a mercenary who doesn't care very much about winning, and I figure that's not who we want anyway.

This is false...You put the largest contract on the table, especially to a Boras client, and we can attract one of them.

You just focused on the 1st sentence and missed the point. The point is that nobody who gives a damn about winning will want to come here until after the young guys amount to something. Just promise and potential isn't enough. The perceived attractiveness of the Orioles will be way different before-and-after the kid-P's and Matt show they're for real. Until that happens, BAL is just a place to lose.

Now, if you really believe that good brand-name hitters care 100% about money and 0% about winning, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe a few do, but I don't believe that most do. I believe most of them want to be incredibly rich *and* have a good shot at winning... as they should... especially if they're gonna be richer than God either way. Who wants to make $130 million on a crappy team if he can make damn near that much on a winning team? I think it's downright bizarre that people assume that's what ballplayers do. There's no evidence to support that claim, it's just what people assume for no apparent reason. IMO, the kind of guy who cares 100% about money and 0% about winning is not only a lot more rare than you seem to think, he's also the kind of guy I would not want the O's to pay through the nose to get. I don't think they will either.

[waroriole]

You don't think it has ever happened? Carlos Lee comes to mind, Konerko, and Vald are also examples. Of course we have Looper from last FA season, but he's not "premium", as if that would matter to the players Union. And didn't Mussina give the O's a home town discount when he certainly could have gotten more on the FA market.

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Wasn't the difference in Konerko's deals 5/60 and 5/65? That's not enough of a difference. Do you have any source to show what Lee and Vlad were offered that they turned down?

[El Gordo]

What is it that you think Unions do?

That depends on what era you are talking about, and what unions you are referring to. They are not all the same . The Actors Union of which I am most famliar does very little for it's members. It insures for certain safety measures, and a certain level of pay depending on the size of the house and potential box office returns. It offers a very poor health plan. It also keeps the large percentage of it's members out of work by refusing to be flexible in in it's contract negotiations, given the current economics of the theatre. But you are the Players Union expert, you tell me what they do?

[El Gordo]

Wasn't the difference in Konerko's deals 5/60 and 5/65? That's not enough of a difference. Do you have any source to show what Lee and Vlad were offered that they turned down?

Go find them your self if you care that much. If you want to believe that players never accept less money to play for a team they prefer, I don't know what to tell you, other than your argument is tiresome and silly IMO.

[VTmook213]

I honestly don't think Holliday would be worth the money it would take to sign him. I think the stats he put up in Oakland are more indicative of the player he would be in the AL East rather than the numbers he put up in the NL.

Let someone else pay top-notch money for a slightly above average outfielder, while we use that money elsewhere.

[El Gordo]

I honestly don't think Holliday would be worth the money it would take to sign him. I think the stats he put up in Oakland are more indicative of the player he would be in the AL East rather than the numbers he put up in the NL.

Let someone else pay top-notch money for a slightly above average outfielder, while we use that money elsewhere.

I think you have to ask how many wins over Nolan Reimold, Holiday would give you, and would that be worth paying him more than $20 mil. per year more than Reimold?

[waroriole]

Go find them your self if you care that much. If you want to believe that players never accept less money to play for a team they prefer, I don't know what to tell you, other than your argument is tiresome and silly IMO.

You're the one who is so big on sources, so I thought you would be willing to provide them to prove your own argument, but I guess it only runs one way huh? Maybe it's time for your nap.

[VTmook213]

I think you have to ask how many wins over Nolan Reimold, Holiday would give you, and would that be worth paying him more than $20 mil. per year more than Reimold?

I don't think the AL East version would be worth it, no.

If you could have the Coors Field version, then perhaps

[El Gordo]

You're the one who is so big on sources, so I thought you would be willing to provide them to prove your own argument, but I guess it only runs one way huh? Maybe it's time for your nap.

Good idea I should have no trouble after reading this scintillating stuff. ZZZZZZZZZZZ:rolleyestf: