CNN/SI: Gibbons received shipments of steriods

[TGO]

When has Bonds been on a WS?

He didn't win, but the Giants played the Angels in the 2002 WS (and blew a 3 games to 2 lead to lose the series).

[DrungoHazewood]

But, a trooper can pull me over and write me a ticket.

An owner had no power to enforce anything.

Remember, at least the commish/owners gave lipservice to wanting a testing program for years. And it was the MLBPA who would never negotiate that issue.

So, if an owner (pre- MLB drug testing) had suspicions about a player what was his options ?

Confront the player ? If so, would that embarrass/anger/alienate the player ?

Ask the player to volunteer to a drug test ? 99% of the players can't even own up to their drug use like a man when they are caught red-handed, so you know a voluntary test was out of the question.

Again, assuming for the sake of the discussions that owners knew for sure that a player(s) were taking steroids- what could they really have done ?

They could have come out and said that they were 99.99% sure that players across the league were using illegal drugs for performance enhancement, and that it was making a mockery of the game, and that the owners and the MLBPA desperately needed to fix this NOW if the integrity of the sport of baseball was to be salvaged.

Instead, all 30 owners sat back, cashed their checks from the late-90s boom, and thoroughly enjoyed their bulked up players, while occasionally mentioning they thought it would be ok if they had a drug testing program. And they'd sometimes do things like strike phrases like "I won't use steroids" from Jason Giambi's contract.

Not one single owner or MLB higher-up ever made drug testing a big priority until this blew up, and at least some of them were actively complicit in the scandal.

[blueberryale77]

But, a trooper can pull me over and write me a ticket.

An owner had no power to enforce anything.

Remember, at least the commish/owners gave lipservice to wanting a testing program for years. And it was the MLBPA who would never negotiate that issue.

So, if an owner (pre- MLB drug testing) had suspicions about a player what was his options ?

Confront the player ? If so, would that embarrass/anger/alienate the player ?

Ask the player to volunteer to a drug test ? 99% of the players can't even own up to their drug use like a man when they are caught red-handed, so you know a voluntary test was out of the question.

Again, assuming for the sake of the discussions that owners knew for sure that a player(s) were taking steroids- what could they really have done?

Hmm, let's see. Oh, I've got it. How about not sign steroid users to obscenely huge free agent contracts?! A boss has a fair amount of leeway not to hire people. They could have just lowballed obvious users so they didn't sign with their team. Why didn't they? Probably because they knew that some other owner would pony up the money and profit from the steroid use. Let's say I find a bag of crack lying in the street. Around the corner, there are a bunch of addicts looking to score. If I leave it lying in the street, someone else might pick it up, sell it and make money off it. Does that mean I should pick it up and sell it instead so I get that money instead of someone else? McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Bret Boone, Brady Anderson... all the obvious users that just about anybody who was paying attention will tell you they strongly suspected... were crack. The owners could have laid off but they didn't. Instead, they gave gargantuan sluggers much bigger contracts than smaller, smarter, more fundamentally sound players who were doing things the right way. What would the union's recourse have been if suddenly a large number of star free agents couldn't find jobs because the owners wanted assurances that they were clean? Certainly Don Fehr did (and is still doing) immeasurable harm to the game of baseball and the players he purported to represent, but ownership could have put a lot more pressure on him than they did. MLB showing a backbone could have also helped individual players who weren't juicing to feel more comfortable standing up and being heard.

To make up yet another analogy, if I show up to a job interview wearing ripped jeans, with my hair a mess and my eyes bloodshot, and smelling like pot, the interviewer is probably not going to hire me because they suspect I'm a pot head. They have a right when hiring a new employee to make that assessment and not hire those who don't fit the image they want for their business. Would it really have been too much to ask for MLB owners, if they really were concerned with eliminating steroid use, not to give huge deals to free agents who presented themselves as the spitting image of roid heads with little effort to even conceal their use?

[Rockbird]

Ankiel, Glaus, Gibbons...all had injury problems and took the roids and hGH to recover quicker.

That's a real popular excuse athletes use, especially with star struck or negligent doctors. "Oh, doc, yeah, my...uhh...leg hurts again, I think I might need some growth hormone". It's all such BS and its entrenched in sports culture from baseball to football to pro wrestling. Its not going to end until there is a comprehensive, broad, outside regulatory agency run by state athletic commissions that test completely randomly and fairly throughout the season and offseason (its too easy to "cycle" on an off at the right times to beat tests if you know when they're coming). The sports leagues themselves won't police themselves. They don't want the expense/embarrassment. It's a shame but I think the players who have not taken anything at all are in the vast minority. And they need to get on the ball and come up with tests for hGH because that's the new standard, hardly anyone is going to take straight testosterone or derivatives anymore since its more easily tested for.

[Rockbird]

This is the second or third time someone has said this, and it still doesn't make sense to me. So what if they're friends? Since when are friends required to do exactly the same things as each other? I have a friend who's a yoga teacher and a vegetarian, but that doesn't mean I have the slightest interest in taking up either of those habits.

It's irresponsible, IMO, to be throwing Brian Roberts's name out for suspicion because of something Jay Gibbons did.

It is irresponsible but its not like Roberts name hasn't come up in affidavits and such before. He is also known to work out in the offseason at these same "athlete peformance rejuvenation" whatever centers that Gibby goes to that are basically big fronts for receiving things of this nature.

[weams]

That's a real popular excuse athletes use, especially with star struck or negligent doctors. "Oh, doc, yeah, my...uhh...leg hurts again, I think I might need some growth hormone". It's all such BS and its entrenched in sports culture from baseball to football to pro wrestling. Its not going to end until there is a comprehensive, broad, outside regulatory agency run by state athletic commissions that test completely randomly and fairly throughout the season and offseason (its too easy to "cycle" on an off at the right times to beat tests if you know when they're coming). The sports leagues themselves won't police themselves. They don't want the expense/embarrassment. It's a shame but I think the players who have not taken anything at all are in the vast minority. And they need to get on the ball and come up with tests for hGH because that's the new standard, hardly anyone is going to take straight testosterone or derivatives anymore since its more easily tested for.

Except Raffy and Jay.

Oh and Bonds and Nomar were injured too.

[Rockbird]

Except Raffy and Jay.

Well, I didn't say they were all smart.

The point is, as more and more get caught, in the future hGH stacked with a little bit of testosterone and insulin will become the standard. The downside is its harder to obtain and more expensive than say Deca. And Jay received Hgh btw.

[Rockbird]

Except Raffy and Jay.

Oh and Bonds and Nomar were injured too.

Again, its a convenient excuse for negligent doctors who care more about making a buck and being friends with an athlete than doing their jobs ethically. Athletes are always injured in some way. There's no medical justification for prescribing hGH to fit, full grown athletes in peak shape for a muscle strain.

[66-70-83-??]

Hmm, let's see. Oh, I've got it. How about not sign steroid users to obscenely huge free agent contracts?! A boss has a fair amount of leeway not to hire people. They could have just lowballed obvious users so they didn't sign with their team. Why didn't they? Probably because they knew that some other owner would pony up the money and profit from the steroid use. Let's say I find a bag of crack lying in the street. Around the corner, there are a bunch of addicts looking to score. If I leave it lying in the street, someone else might pick it up, sell it and make money off it. Does that mean I should pick it up and sell it instead so I get that money instead of someone else? McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Bret Boone, Brady Anderson... all the obvious users that just about anybody who was paying attention will tell you they strongly suspected... were crack. The owners could have laid off but they didn't. Instead, they gave gargantuan sluggers much bigger contracts than smaller, smarter, more fundamentally sound players who were doing things the right way. What would the union's recourse have been if suddenly a large number of star free agents couldn't find jobs because the owners wanted assurances that they were clean? Certainly Don Fehr did (and is still doing) immeasurable harm to the game of baseball and the players he purported to represent, but ownership could have put a lot more pressure on him than they did. MLB showing a backbone could have also helped individual players who weren't juicing to feel more comfortable standing up and being heard.

To make up yet another analogy, if I show up to a job interview wearing ripped jeans, with my hair a mess and my eyes bloodshot, and smelling like pot, the interviewer is probably not going to hire me because they suspect I'm a pot head. They have a right when hiring a new employee to make that assessment and not hire those who don't fit the image they want for their business. Would it really have been too much to ask for MLB owners, if they really were concerned with eliminating steroid use, not to give huge deals to free agents who presented themselves as the spitting image of roid heads with little effort to even conceal their use?

First of all, not every steroid user "looks" like Popeye. Second, the MLBPA would have screamed bloody collusion if owners tried to claim that they werent signing players for suspected steroid use without any evidence.

It is easy to say all this today, with the benefit of hindsight, that the owners should have done this or done that.

Where were all the articles about steroid use among players by all those beat writers who saw these guys day-in, day-out for years in the locker rooms ? Of course, there weren't any.

Fwiw, Fay Vincent has said that he is embarrassed that he didn't catch on sooner to the steroid problems in baseball. He just didn't know. Is he stupid ? Naive ?

It is hard to say what the owners/commissioner collectively knew and when they knew it.

But, we do know that players knew what they were doing by taking the drugs.

[Rockbird]

First of all, not every steroid user "looks" like Popeye.

Seriously, this is an important point a lot of people have to understand. It makes your workouts more productive but you still need to work out to see gains. Plenty of fat guys on roids, and sometimes it won't do much more than make a skinny guy a little more toned. Looks aren't everything.

[JTrea81]

Seriously, this is an important point a lot of people have to understand. It makes your workouts more productive but you still need to work out to see gains. Plenty of fat guys on roids, and sometimes it won't do much more than make a skinny guy a little more toned. Looks aren't everything.

Just look at Raffy. Nobody thought he could be on roids because of his shape.

[weams]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=2055896

We do know that some pitchers' velocities are down, and privately there has been a lot of speculation about who is off the juice -- that can be deceiving as well. For instance, in his first few starts, as happened last April, Mike Mussina's velocity was 86-88 mph, and now that it's May, in his two starts he is back to 90-92 mph and his brilliant self.

Verstegen bristles at the Garciaparra question because he knows Nomar better than anyone. For a decade, Nomar has been going to API in Bradenton, Fla.; Tempe, Ariz.; and, at the Home Depot Center this winter, in Carson, Calif. And, like anyone and everyone who trains at API, he has to sign an ethics statement and adhere to Verstegen's program to provide an ethical alternative to cheating, a program that has been adopted by the National Football League.

I wonder if Jay is "like anyone and everyone".

[blueberryale77]

It is irresponsible but its not like Roberts name hasn't come up in affidavits and such before. He is also known to work out in the offseason at these same "athlete peformance rejuvenation" whatever centers that Gibby goes to that are basically big fronts for receiving things of this nature.

His name appeared in one report which claimed that an affidavit stated that a very questionable source had fingered him as a user without providing any evidence, and even the accuracy of the article as to what was in the affidavit was called into question. That's one very tenuous rumor, not a lengthy history of being linked to stuff. Also there is nothing about "rejuvenation" in the name of Athlete's Performance. It's a very large, well-known workout facility with multiple location across the country that serves large numbers of pro and college athletes from every major sport. I guess it's theoretically possible that everyone who works out there uses something illegal, but it's more likely that the percentage of athletes working out there who use illegal substances is much lower than the percentage at some dark, sweaty boxing club in Brooklyn. It might even be lower than at your neighborhood Gold's Gym.

Also, I'm not aware of you being one of the posters swearing up and down that ownership and management couldn't possibly be complicit in the steroid problem, but it does strike me here that Roberts was encouraged by the team to attend a facility such as Athlete's Performance and repeatedly applauded by team executives for doing so. So if everyone at those places uses and management sends players there, it looks like there is complicity after all.

[blueberryale77]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=2055896

I wonder if Jay is "like anyone and everyone".

If you go way back in the thread, I posted the statement from their web site that all players face expulsion and loss of their money if they use PEDs while "members of the API community."

[Rockbird]

Also, I'm not aware of you being one of the posters swearing up and down that ownership and management couldn't possibly be complicit in the steroid problem, but it does strike me here that Roberts was encouraged by the team to attend a facility such as Athlete's Performance and repeatedly applauded by team executives for doing so. So if everyone at those places uses and management sends players there, it looks like there is complicity after all.

I don't believe anyone ever stuck a syringe and a vial in anyone's hand and said "here take this!" but management/ownership was clearly aware and complicit by their inaction. As for the players, they're doing what they feel they need to do to keep up with the rest of the league and earn a big contract. It's a sad, screwed up situation. In a locker room atmosphere (literally) information on this stuff spreads like wildfire.