Over a week ago the O's were reportedly "aggressive" in the free agent market...

[Sports Guy]

Look, you just can't put those expectations on any given FO. Thirteen years of losing are not MacPhail's fault. And, in large part, the losing years under MacPhail are the product of previous regimes.

You can't expect more from the GM of a team with a long losing history. Their job is HARDER. They should be given more of the benefit of the doubt when, for example, they don't get the premium FA they wanted. Because it's harder for them.

What you can expect is for them to be improving the team on a consistent basis.

AM has had way too many long stretches of doing nothing to improve a perennial losing team.

Look at how quickly Toronto has turned around their poor farm system. It has taken them a little more than a year.

Many people on here were willing to give AM years to do that.

[Sports Guy]

Can someone please tell me what is so good about Toronto's farm system? I wasn't very impressed by their top ten in Baseball America.

They are adding a ton of talent...spending big in international talent.

Now, part of that was the Halladay deal but they have ramped up the scouting and the money being spent on amateur talent.

[Sports Guy]

They may be doing all of that but the results aren't in yet. Our top ten is supposed to be weak. Theirs is no better. They may deserve some credit for their effort but their system looks no stronger than ours right now.

What are you basing this off of? I think you are going to be hard pressed to find any publications that will agree with you there.

But that's besides the point...They are moving quickly and aggressively to improve things...I can't say I see the Orioles doing that.

[Stotle]

Can someone please tell me what is so good about Toronto's farm system? I wasn't very impressed by their top ten in Baseball America.

Their top ten is no better than ours. I'll argue that one all day long.

I mean, I don't know what you are looking for. I guess it's subjective, right? You have access to the scouting reports for both Top 10s at BA, and if you like BAL better than you like BAL better.

[Stotle]

I'm not sure what you are saying here. If you disagree, I'd be happy to accomodate you.

Their #3 guy is almost a carbon copy of Xavier Avery. Their #2 guy (Deck McGuire) is comparable to Britton, but Britton has done it and McGuire has not. BTW, I do have access to the scouting reports.

Right -- I said you have access to the scouting reports.

You asked for someone to tell you what is so good about TOR's farm system. You have professionals at Baseball America (who like Toronto's system more than Baltimore's ) giving you write-ups of both. I was just asking what you are looking for from posters here. If BA isn't convincing you, I'm doubting the opinions of folks around here is going to change anything either.

[Stotle]

I'm not sure what BA is basing their opinion on. It must be more than the top ten, because a look at the top ten will tell you that there isn't a whole lot of difference. Question for you. Do you like their #2 prospect a lot better than the O's #2? Their #3? Where do you see the big difference in talent within the top 10?

Interesting that you use Baseball America as an authority when they agree with you but you doubt them when they disagree with you.

I am just citing them as an authority because I know you value their opinion more than mine. Which is why I was asking what posters (such as myself) could say if BA hasn't convinced you.

As to your question, for me, Gose is a better prospect than Avery because the defense and arm are there. You have a fallback of a very good defender up the middle. Avery may get to that point, but his arm as not what Gose's is and he isn't in the same ballpark defensively at this point.

D'Arnaud is a solid defensive catcher with the skillset to translate to at least an average bat. That's pretty valuable, and something I don't really see in BAL's system. They have depth at catcher, too, with Arencibia and Perez at two different ends of the developmental spectrum.

Sanchez has one of the livelier fastballs from the HS ranks in this draft class, though he is raw. His stuff is further along than Bridwells, though.

McGuire/Wojo/Stewart -- none are good bets to be studs, but all are solid potential mid-rotation arms and Wojo/Stewart have the pure two-pitch stuff to pitch high-leverage innings at the ML level. Don't know if McGuire's consistency will come around enough for him to be an impact ML arm, but it's a really nice heavy fastball and I saw a plus curve and plus slider at different points during the spring (though never on the same day).

[Stotle]

You answered part 1. Do you like McGuire better than Britton?

No, I think Britton has proven more. I think both have comparable ceilings.

But that isn't really relevant to comparing the systems -- the big difference is the depth of quality in Toronto's system. It's not a top system in baseball, but it has improved markedly in a short amount of time and there is a lot of very solid talent.

[Sports Guy]

No, I think Britton has proven more. I think both have comparable ceilings.

But that isn't really relevant to comparing the systems -- the big difference is the depth of quality in Toronto's system. It's not a top system in baseball, but it has improved markedly in a short amount of time and there is a lot of very solid talent.

And they are going to be adding a lot more in June...They are going to have a lot of picks early on.

[Stotle]

And they are going to be adding a lot more in June...They are going to have a lot of picks early on.

If they open up the checkbook they could pull in a really impressive haul. Still remains to be seen who gets arb and who accepts.

[Oriolidae85]

How often do we hear this statement on here?

I have zero confidence in the team of PA and AM. I see no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I have confidence in AM for one lone reason at this point....the Orioles are just entering the phase where the team should start competing. AM started in 2007, it should take 4-6 years to rebuild a team enough to put them in the right places to compete. Especially given the Orioles prospects and MLB team status when his responsibilities started.

AM's rebuilding process has been publicly defined every step of the way, albeit from a more closed vest approach by Andy Macphail (than teams with ^3 spending $$ capabilities). AM has stated "rebuilding" and we are now getting close to entering his #4 year, which is coincidentally the exact #hitter the Orioles need this off season.

This is the off season of "put up or shut up"/"I'll believe it when I see it"/"ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS"....more so than any other season with AM.

I'm not crossing my fingers or hoping for splashes by the Orioles right now....when players like Jose Lopez, Bill Hall, Gonzalez (yes, I said it...200+ K's and climbing at 3B Gonzalez)...might not be tendered. If any of them hit the market, I'm grabbing them and immediately improving more significantly in other areas of need.

Until that happens? Will not hold my breath....the Orioles are going to produce this offseason in multiple ways via trade, FA...IMO!!!:beerchug1:

[mweb]

Why is the response to these types of things...well, hardly any teams have done anything?

Why do people care what other teams are or aren't doing?

Because if not much has happened around the league, I have a hard time getting upset at this time. I don't think all these "why hasn't anything happened yet" posts make much sense. The off-season isn't a race and it's not like much, if anything has happened as of yet that AM should have pulled off.

Now, if Upton or Hardy or whoever get dealt for something that we should have beat, or if a desirable free agent signs for something we should have beat, then sure, bash the O's, but until then I don't really get it. I guess it's impatience combined with many people not liking AM's deliberate style.

But all that matters is the results of the off-season as a whole, not by 11/22 when barely anything has happened.

You and others have complained and/or assumed that AM hasn't been active in trying to improve the team, but the reports we've seen have seen so far suggest otherwise, so that's encouraging. But again, the results are what ultimately matter, not all this other nonsense this board gets hung up on at times.

[JDubs]

Who said they had to make big moves yet? Can you point out for me who said that?

And since you quoted me, can you point out where I said it?

You are the best deflector I have read on the internets in some time. Kudos, I guess.

[mweb]

I bet you those 20 message boards couldn't apply the thread to last off-season, and the one before that, and the one before that, and the one before that, and the one before that, etc. and be entirely accurate.

About what exactly? That they haven't made a splash as you've said by 11/20? I think plenty of message boards could say that. There haven't been any splashes yet anywhere and sudden splashes aren't necessarily a good thing, trust me, I'm a Skins fan.

All of this just seems like complaining for the sake of complaining as well bitterness regarding the past showing its face. We all have the right to feel that way, but it doesn't mean it's a logical complaint at this point in time.

At this point in the off-season, I don't see how there can be much to praise or bash the O's for. They've apparently identified their targets and have been active in taking steps to get some of them. Well that's pretty much the norm by this time of the year.

If they miss out on various guys that they should have gotten for the given cost, then there will be reason to complain. If they end up having a poor off-season overall, then obviously there will be reason to complain. But if they trade for Hardy for example in a month instead of already having done it, then that's just as good as doing it before Turkey Day. Actually, it could be better because being patient may have reduced the cost of getting him.

In general, being super fast with negotiations leads to paying a higher cost imo. But it's less frustrating for message board posters.

Lastly, I will say that I fully understand why people would be skeptical that AM and the O's will have a good off-season, but that's separate from this "they need to do things now" attitude.

[mweb]

There's plenty to discuss. How about how the definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different result. Maybe it is rant-ish, but there was a small part of me that was hoping the reports of "aggression" would mean an early splash.

And none involving the O's. We wait every year. Most recently, we waited and wound up with guys like Garrett Atkins, Adam Eaton, Michael Gonzalez, among others. Waiting to see what happens generally involves watching free agents who could make a positive impact on this big league club sign with other teams.

Bold is pointed out for SG who asked for this.

Anyway, I don't think your second paragraph is very logical. The reason why they didn't get the "free agents who could have made a positive impact" is not because they've waited too long, it's because they weren't willing to sign those guys for thos price they would have cost.

Again, there's good reason to be skeptical of what they'll do this off-season, but the fact that they haven't made a move yet when few if any moves they should have made have occurred is not a reason to assume the off-season will be poor results-wise.

Last season, they had targeted the guys they signed by this time, well this off-season they've targeted several SS's, VMart, Beltre, Konerko, possibly other first basemen, possibly a vet starter, and possibly Upton. So while I don't support all the targets, it's not a bad list imo and shows there may be a willingness to make some big moves.

[scOtt]

If the Orioles had traded for Hardy, offered Beltre a contract and made significant progress with Upton, what would you be saying right now?

We'd be saying "My God the OH is quiet."

...because half the posters would be dead of a heart attack.