Are the O's a third place finisher?

[El Gordo]

Between TB, TOR, and the O's for 3rd place, it's a matter of who is the healthiest and/or the luckiest.

[now]

AM did a great job filling holes and making smart moves for 2011. He did nothing for 2012 except Reynolds.

I will concede that players he brought in could end up being trade bait, extended or let go for picks and all of those make us better long term.

But right now, we haven't really improved the team long term and that is a big issue with me.

If what we are hearing is true, the Orioles are looking to trade for a pitcher. A pitcher? I am not saying a very good starter wouldn't be welcomed but we aren't likely to get a very good starter for what we have to offer, at least one that is established. What they should be looking to get are some ML ready or close to ML ready position players for the long term.

I agree with the bolded part, but question the basic critique. Why is it necessary to address both 2012 and 2011 this year? One year at a time works for me, especially as the O's are at crunch time with the rebuilding effort and need to see how the young core performs this year. And you already mention the potential for further improvement through trade, extension or extra draft picks, from this year's acquisitions. So it's pointless to assume the worst in 2012 when there is a lot that can still happen between now and then.

I personally wouldn't sign [Vlad]. I would rather see Reimold/Pie get the at bats..just as I want Tillman to get the innings.

Now, if you get Vlad for next to nothing, there is upside there.

This is more of a nitpick for me, because I agree with you on the basic point, but don't get the big deal about the contract. Isn't it more important to do the best thing player-wise, than contract-wise? Is a $2M discount on Vlad worth sacrificing the Pie/Reimold experiment if that's what you prefer?

This ties in with the larger issue of budget, and how it seems predominantly here posters are at least as concerned about maintaining budget as they are with improving the club. I get that with limited resources it's important to make the wisest decisions. What I don't get is why we assume what those limits are, why we assume they can't expand, and why a couple of million here or there are necessary to keep tabs on. We take on the role of chief financial officer as if it's our duty to maintain a certain budget for the club; or accept a given level of budget restraint as if it's set in stone. To me it makes more sense as fans to argue for the best product on the field given a more flexible budget. It's up to the owner and I think PA has proven he can spend lots more when he wants to, when it makes sense, when we can reasonably contend. We're getting there, and we don't need to sweat the small stuff.

[flashjordnk]

Who is analyzing anything? All that has been said is the other teams look to have a better long term future than the O's as of right now. I don't see how you can intelligently question that. You are making this out to be way more than it is but hey, its what you do, so whatever.

Short sighted is ignoring the long term.

Then put me on ignore and stop crying. I am tired of your pollyanna, everything is great attitude..so, can you stop that too? I made one comment and was asked to explain it, so I did. This is a message board, sometimes things are going to go other directions from the point of the thread, like your pointless ranting in this thread.

Oh I know, why not start another thread about how you don't like the Ravens secondary..speaking of broken records.

Look I'm just saying that I think you analysis for two years from now can't be done until this season is over. Sure the O's are probably not in the best position for 2012 right this second.

But I don't think without seeing how they finish this year can you say this team will be in 5th place in 2012. There are some things that can happen to Tampa or to the Jays or the O's that are unforeseen and because of that I think 2012 is just really impossible to make estimations about.

I'm not questioning that the O's MiLB system is worse off than other teams. But I am willing to intelligently argue that the O's have a lot more potential value on the MLB roster than a lot of other teams in the AL East. Because of that I think there are ways to improve this team that are not in the minors, and because of that something we can't account for until we see how 2011 goes.

And I'm not crying, if i was through my tears I'd ask you to be a little less sensitive.

[Sports Guy]

I agree with the bolded part, but question the basic critique. Why is it necessary to address both 2012 and 2011 this year? One year at a time works for me, especially as the O's are at crunch time with the rebuilding effort and need to see how the young core performs this year. And you already mention the potential for further improvement through trade, extension or extra draft picks, from this year's acquisitions. So it's pointless to assume the worst in 2012 when there is a lot that can still happen between now and then.

Not me...We can't win in 2011, so the long term should still be the goal. Now, you can do that by satisfying short term needs while also addressing the long term. The Orioles have chosen not to do that.

This is more of a nitpick for me, because I agree with you on the basic point, but don't get the big deal about the contract. Isn't it more important to do the best thing player-wise, than contract-wise? Is a $2M discount on Vlad worth sacrificing the Pie/Reimold experiment if that's what you prefer?

This ties in with the larger issue of budget, and how it seems predominantly here posters are at least as concerned about maintaining budget as they are with improving the club. I get that with limited resources it's important to make the wisest decisions. What I don't get is why we assume what those limits are, why we assume they can't expand, and why a couple of million here or there are necessary to keep tabs on. We take on the role of chief financial officer as if it's our duty to maintain a certain budget for the club; or accept a given level of budget restraint as if it's set in stone. To me it makes more sense as fans to argue for the best product on the field given a more flexible budget. It's up to the owner and I think PA has proven he can spend lots more when he wants to, when it makes sense, when we can reasonably contend. We're getting there, and we don't need to sweat the small stuff.

It will be much easier to offer him arb and perhaps get a draft pick if his salary is very low in 2011. Not to mention, a lower salary may make it easier to sign amateur talent.

[Sports Guy]

Look I'm just saying that I think you analysis for two years from now can't be done until this season is over. Sure the O's are probably not in the best position for 2012 right this second.

End of discussion.

But I am willing to intelligently argue that the O's have a lot more potential value on the MLB roster than a lot of other teams in the AL East. Because of that I think there are ways to improve this team that are not in the minors, and because of that something we can't account for until we see how 2011 goes.

I have no idea how you are going to do that intelligently.

[Say O!]

The best case for the O's going forward is that MLB re-aligns back to a 2 division format and having 2 wildcard teams. Then it is conceivable they could sneak into the playoffs without having to overtake the NYY and BOS every year.

Back to the original topic and 2011 finish. Everyone (and that includes national pundits) seems to be analyzing the recent slurry of moves from a purely offensive standpoint.

Tampa is clearly worse defensively with Damon playing the outfield. Similarly, TOR with corner OF filled with rotation of Snider, Lind, Bautista and Napoli at 1B is not as strong defensively as one year ago.

In a division like the AL East with no real doormats or below average teams, with competitive games every night, defense has a much larger impact IMO. You can't have glaring weaknesses and substitute one element (offense) in place of another (defense). You gotta have both. Tampa's success was built on the foundation of defense. Defense has been one element that's hindered TOR and will continue to do so. With capable defenders at every position, and some well above that standard, that's why I'm hopeful that the O's can outperform expectations.