Measuring Wieters' impact on Orioles isn't easy - Kevin Van Valkenburg, The Baltimore Sun

[Sports Guy]

I agree with this and I agree that he's been disappointing. I hope he's one of those guys where everything just suddenly clicks. As disappointing as he's been though, he still has been valuable to this team (not saying that you disagree with that).

The problem is, I think some actually think that.

No one is saying he isn't valuable and no one is saying he can't get better.

You would have to be incredibly foolish and naive to believe either of those things.

What people are expressing concerns about is how he looks offensively. People are trying to justify his his value by bringing up his defense...but, as RandyM said, if Wieters was on another team, people on here would be talking about him being a bust.

If some team offered us Wieters for a guy like Britton, people would be laughing about it and how horrible that would be for the Orioles to do.

At this point, people are reaching for positives and making those positives out to be bigger and rarer than they are.

If you want to only look at the positive side of things, that's fine..I have no issue with that.

But then don't complain and start unneccassary arguments with those that are looking into things deeper than that.

[Sports Guy]

Right...honestly like I said earlier, I'd really like to see how his adjustments that Presley is working on with him come out. I think 9 games is too soon to assume he isn't changing his style. Or if he is changing those changes won't be successful in the long term.

I hate that he doesn't attack the ball. I really do. He looks big, we know he can be strong when he needs to be. I'm not sure what the trigger point is there for him. But I'm not willing to say he's not going to make the jump this year until at least 80 games in. I do think his approach needs work, but I don't think he's just idling and not doing anything about it. And if that's the case I'm not willing to say the MW through 9 games this year is the same MW as the one we had last year.

So essentially, you are worried and seeing the same issues that everyone else is talking about...yet you want to argue about this anyway?

[Bosibus]

This thread is going to be 10 pages tonight if Wieters pulls a HR.

[SerenityNow]

So essentially, you are worried and seeing the same issues that everyone else is talking about...yet you want to argue about this anyway?

I think the arguement comes from "black hole, he is what he is, bust, lucky to hit .250" type of reactions some folks are havings. I'm not saying he is ever going to be a great hitter, and I don't know of one oriole fan who isn't disappointed with his bat so far, but a few posters calling him a black hole? C'mon.

[Sports Guy]

I think the arguement comes from "black hole, he is what he is, bust, lucky to hit .250" type of reactions some folks are havings. I'm not saying he is ever going to be a great hitter, and I don't know of one oriole fan who isn't disappointed with his bat so far, but a few posters calling him a black hole? C'mon.

I would agree that black hole is too strong of a word but something like a 260/320/390/710 slash line isn't exactly good either.

[flashjordnk]

So essentially, you are worried and seeing the same issues that everyone else is talking about...yet you want to argue about this anyway?

I'm pretty sure it wasn't clear to me what this thread was about.

I was trying to basically say that Wieters is way more valuable than Ausmus and that the notion of bringing Aumus into the conversation automatically devalues Wieters. I'm saying his bat can stay in the lineup more than those guys, and I'm saying that his past history shows that he could be a much much better hitter.

I think it's dangerous to get into the trap of using guys like Tatum to say we could get from him what we already get from Wieters. And I think once that becomes part of the conversation we already devalue what we have.

I do also think that the O's can win now and in the future even if Wieters bat doesn't become a great one. In the past with guys like Javy Lopez or Ramon Hernandez you needed to carry a specialist for certain games and certain guys, in this case a lot like Tatum. Because of the lack of need with a guy like Wieters we can go buy a guy like Vlad put him in the lineup and use him to make up for lost OPS in Wieters. I think this value goes really really underrated, especially when Tatum and Ausmus's names and abilities are brought into the conversation about:

Measuring Wieters' impact on Orioles isn't easy - Kevin Van Valkenburg, The Baltimore Sun

[Phantom]

Your idea of "the best minds in baseball" is different than mine. I have a lot of respect for sabermetricians, but I'm not writing off the opinions of thousands of players who have played the game annd hundreds of managers who have managed it. I realize that sometimes conventional wisdom gets established that has no basis in fact, but I'm not willing to accept the notion that pitch-calling by the catcher is essentially irrelevant, when so many pitchers, catchers and managers think otherwise.

Fair enough. I disagree completely, but I'm glad you A) posted your thoughts genialy (unlike whatever seems to be going around here today) and B) realized there is a ton of stuff that managers and players got really, really wrong for a long time.

I personally think this is one of those things that is likely players and managers assigning more value to because it is in their best interest (this is not to suggest they do it intentionally).

[Frobby]

Hypotethetical #1:

The Orioles win 92 games this year, post an ERA of 3.75, and to a man, the pitchers and Buck Showalter say that Matt Wieters' pitch-calling and defense was a big part of the reason why the pitching improved. However, Wieters posts a .695 OPS like he did last year. Are you disappointed with Wieters overall, or not?

Hypothetical #2:

The Orioles win 82 games, post an ERA of 4.35, and to a man, the pitchers and Buck Showalter say that Matt Wieters' pitch-calling and defense was a big part of the reason why the pitching improved. However, Wieters posts a .695 OPS like he did last year. Are you disappointed with Wieters overall, or not?

Speaking for myself, the team results and pitching results will matter in how I balance the compliments paid to his pitch calling and his offensive production. Just win, baby.

[Hank Scorpio]

To me, Wieters' biggest issue is no different than Jones' biggest issue: pitch recognition. I think that his bat is fast enough, he just has issues identifying sliders & changeups.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen him down in the count and have to try and physically slow his swing down after his stride b/c he was guessing fastball.

[SrMeowMeow]

I am talking about the a catcher who is known as a great game caller, good defensively, etc....If that is all Wieters is going to be(and sure, you can throw in another 40-50 points of OPS), then he will not have been what we hoped for.

When the Orioles drafted him, they didn't draft him to be Ausmus(+ 50 points in OPS, just to satisfy your stupid argument).

Do you really not understand the value of +50 points of OPS?

[Sports Guy]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't clear to me what this thread was about.

I was trying to basically say that Wieters is way more valuable than Ausmus and that the notion of bringing Aumus into the conversation automatically devalues Wieters. I'm saying his bat can stay in the lineup more than those guys, and I'm saying that his past history shows that he could be a much much better hitter.

I think it's dangerous to get into the trap of using guys like Tatum to say we could get from him what we already get from Wieters. And I think once that becomes part of the conversation we already devalue what we have.

I do also think that the O's can win now and in the future even if Wieters bat doesn't become a great one. In the past with guys like Javy Lopez or Ramon Hernandez you needed to carry a specialist for certain games and certain guys, in this case a lot like Tatum. Because of the lack of need with a guy like Wieters we can go buy a guy like Vlad put him in the lineup and use him to make up for lost OPS in Wieters. I think this value goes really really underrated, especially when Tatum and Ausmus's names and abilities are brought into the conversation about:

The only danger there is that you actually think that was what was being said.

[Sports Guy]

Do you really not understand the value of +50 points of OPS?

You are really dense. The fact that you don't get this is mind boggling. Just please stop conversing with me.

[SerenityNow]

To me, Wieters' biggest issue is no different than Jones' biggest issue: pitch recognition. I think that his bat is fast enough, he just has issues identifying sliders & changeups.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen him down in the count and have to try and physically slow his swing down after his stride b/c he was guessing fastball.

I'm no expert, but that's pretty much what I'm seeing.

[Sports Guy]

Hypotethetical #1:

The Orioles win 92 games this year, post an ERA of 3.75, and to a man, the pitchers and Buck Showalter say that Matt Wieters' pitch-calling and defense was a big part of the reason why the pitching improved. However, Wieters posts a .695 OPS like he did last year. Are you disappointed with Wieters overall, or not?

Hypothetical #2:

The Orioles win 82 games, post an ERA of 4.35, and to a man, the pitchers and Buck Showalter say that Matt Wieters' pitch-calling and defense was a big part of the reason why the pitching improved. However, Wieters posts a .695 OPS like he did last year. Are you disappointed with Wieters overall, or not?

Speaking for myself, the team results and pitching results will matter in how I balance the compliments paid to his pitch calling and his offensive production. Just win, baby.

Team results matter...but if Wieters isn't good offensively, i will have the same long term doubts that I do now.

[Sports Guy]

This is as cliche and hacky as it gets... but I would like Wieters to sit down and watch some video of his professional highlights. He strikes me as a guy with quiet confidence that is not yet totally comfortable in his own shoes. I think if he spent sometime reminding himself of what he has accomplished as a professional, the self-esteem boost would help him at the plate.

Beyond that, I think I would consider moving him up in the lineup. I know that is counter-intuitive, but I get the sense that batting in the lower 1/3 becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I'm not sold on lineup protection, but I do think there is something psychological about where you bat in the lineup (and where a player feels he fits in with the team). Lastly, this is a player that has had extreme success at all levels and has likely rarely been pushed or challenged. Baseball can be a humbling game. The struggles with the bat are likely the first time he has dealt with any failure. I imagine it is quite the learning experience for him.

He prefers to bat third...Says that is where he is most comfortable.

To be honest with you, if that's what it takes, I move him there.

The Orioles need him to be the offensive player we hoped he would be. If you had him batting third and then just moved everyone else down a notch, I don't think it would really effect anyone else and it may help Wieters.