How can Penn be this bad????

[mweb]

Didn't you say the same thing in regards to Loewen and/or Markakis?

I remember discussing this with you before about one(or both) of them.

So it makes no difference at all what a guy does in his first few months or first few starts? If Penn was phenomenal his first 2 starts, I'm sure it would matter to you.

Just because 2 guys got off to rough starts and then stepped up doesn't mean that all rough starts should be totally ignored. What kind of logic is that? There's plenty of examples of guys who were touted, got off to a bad start, and then never became good, or took very long to become good, but I guess that doesn't matter because Loewen and Markakis have been good of late.

[Sports Guy]

So it makes no difference at all what a guy does in his first few months or first few starts? If Penn was phenomenal his first 2 starts, I'm sure it would matter to you.

Just because 2 guys got off to rough starts and then stepped up doesn't mean that all rough starts should be totally ignored. What kind of logic is that? There's plenty of examples of guys who were touted, got off to a bad start, and then never became good, or took very long to become good, but I guess that doesn't matter because Loewen and Markakis have been good of late.

Considered my opinion if guys like Penn, Loewen and Markakis has never waivered, no, it wouldn't mean anything to me.

[mweb]

Considered my opinion if guys like Penn, Loewen and Markakis has never waivered, no, it wouldn't mean anything to me.

So no difference at all to you between Penn doing what he has done and going 16 innings, with 16 k's, 2 bb, 0 hr's, 2 ER's? I'd bet anything you'd be talking up Penn if he was great in his first two starts.

And you did start to waver with Nick since you were saying at one point that you wouldn't give him too much more time to step it up before sending him down.

How many starts does Penn need to make for your opinion to be at least slightly tweaked in a good or bad way?

[Sports Guy]

So no difference at all to you between Penn doing what he has done and going 16 innings, with 16 k's, 2 bb, 0 hr's, 2 ER's? I'd bet anything you'd be talking up Penn if he was great in his first two starts.

My opinion of him has always been very high. So, i would just be restating what i have always said. My opinion of him is unchanged.

And you did start to waver with Nick since you were saying at one point that you wouldn't give him too much more time to step it up before sending him down.

Yes, i was going to give him another month to start playing better and then i would hve considered sending him down. Of course, within 2 weeks of that, he was showing life.

How many starts does Penn need to make for your opinion to be at least slightly tweaked in a good or bad way?

Talk to me NEXT year.

[mweb]

My opinion of him has always been very high. So, i would just be restating what i have always said. My opinion of him is unchanged.

Yes, i was going to give him another month to start playing better and then i would hve considered sending him down. Of course, within 2 weeks of that, he was showing life.

Talk to me NEXT year.

So if he's awful in 4 more starts this season, you won't be concerned in the least bit about penciling him into the rotation next year?

If that's the case, I think that's very foolish. It also goes against something you said:

"Now you go into next year unsure about Penn"

I thought you were already sure, why do we need to actually see him pitch to be sure going into next year? It doesn't make any difference what he does anyway in 6 starts.

[mark_beckens]

There is a thread about last night's starting pitcher just about 162 days a year around here. And I see nothing worng with it.

There is nothing that will happen this month that will change my opinion that Penn should be given a chance to win a job in the starting rotation next spring. But in assessing what to do with the overall staff this winter, you have to take into account how well Penn has performed this month. He has 4 starts left, I hope at least 2 of them are solid. If not, it builds a very strong case that we need to bring in some outside pitching.

But overreacting to 2 starts does what? His next outing could be great and all this BS is exactly what it is, worthless!

[mark_beckens]

I know.

It is a sore spot among pitchers. They will never tell what the "tip-off" was when they are told. They quietly fix it, if they can.

When so-so hitters sometimes "own" really good pitchers- it is usually because they have "cracked the code" and figured out what they are going to throw. Most hitters will share with teammates but the tip-off could be so sublte that not everyone can read it.

It is an interesting subject. I read an extensive article a few months back about it.

Eckersley talked about how he was inadvertantly tipping his pitches at different points of his career, how he found out, etc... And he would never tell what the tip was until after he retired.

I faced 2 lefties in my semi-pro league in MD, they both tipped off their curveballs by dropping their elbows, made hitting them alot easier.

[Sports Guy]

So if he's awful in 4 more starts this season, you won't be concerned in the least bit about penciling him into the rotation next year?

If that's the case, I think that's very foolish. It also goes against something you said:

"Now you go into next year unsure about Penn"

I thought you were already sure, why do we need to actually see him pitch to be sure going into next year? It doesn't make any difference what he does anyway in 6 starts.

If he threw 4 no hitters the rest of the year, you would be unsure what he gives you next year. He will still be extremely inexperienced either way.

[mweb]

If he threw 4 no hitters the rest of the year, you would be unsure what he gives you next year. He will still be extremely inexperienced either way.

Unsure, yes, but the degree of how sure I am would obviously be changed a lot. And I think everyone except apparently you, would agree with that.

[Sports Guy]

Unsure, yes, but the degree of how sure I am would obviously be changed a lot. And I think everyone except apparently you, would agree with that.

I don't get why you just can't accept that i don't get all worried about this stuff like you guys do.

I was right to be patient with Loewen and Markakis and i think i will be right with Penn.

[mweb]

I don't get why you just can't accept that i don't get all worried about this stuff like you guys do.

I was right to be patient with Loewen and Markakis and i think i will be right with Penn.

I didn't say I'm getting all worried, I said there should be a middle ground between your thought process and the overreaction crowd. I just think it's absurd that a guy pitching 4 no hitters as you wrote compared to him having 4 awful starts doesn't change anything to you.

It's not about being patient, not sure where you're even getting that one from. Basically everyone here is saying he should continue to start. It's not like we're giving up on these guys.

All many of us are saying is we'd feel a little better about Penn's future if he was pitching great opposed to poorly. We'd feel a little more secure handing him a spot in the rotation for last year if he was doing better.

[bgfield]

Saw this blurb on MSN sports page, looking at the preview for tonights game:

News: Hayden Penn, absolutely rocked in this two starts, is going to get at least one more start, says manager Sam Perlozzo.

Impact: The Orioles won't commit beyond that, however, even though Penn is probably auditioning for a 2007 rotation spot. "We'll see how it goes," Perlozzo said. "We don't want to see him struggle like he has." It would be a shame if Penn's future in the organization was put at risk by just two starts.

I know the guy's been terrible but jeez, they're basically already saying "Make this third one good or that might be it for you this year."

I really, really hope the FO knows something we don't. I don't care how bad he is, he needs to get as many starts as possible.

[NewMarketSean]

Saw this blurb on MSN sports page, looking at the preview for tonights game:

I know the guy's been terrible but jeez, they're basically already saying "Make this third one good or that might be it for you this year."

I really, really hope the FO knows something we don't. I don't care how bad he is, he needs to get as many starts as possible.

The O's probably figure, "if Penn is going to pitch this bad, we might as well get Ortiz another start before the season is over."

I wouldn't read too much into Penn's struggles this year. He was a week away from being called up, had emergency appendicitus, waited 3 more weeks longer than he should have to be called up, and is now thrown into the fire against playoff teams.

He's got to be dog tired, emotionally and physically. If he gets another bad start, just rest him and let him come into ST with the 5th spot, assuming that Lopez is gone, which we all know could make an azz out of U and ME.

[Frobby]

I saw enough of Penn in 2005 to know he is a much better pitcher than this. I'm inclined to keep sending him out there every fifth day unless it looks like there is some physical problem. It's better for him to try to figure out his problem now than doing it next spring.

[weams]

'Tater is much better since fixing his tip off and I suspect that with the confidence batters are having facing Hayden...it could very well be. I am sure that Leo will be looking at this for Penn. Also if you have only two pitches working against American League hitters, it can be a long afternoon.

I feel validated