Mazzone: Then I went to Baltimore....

[Moose Milligan]

I think Leo thought he was hot %$#@ and could work with anyone. My impression is that any pitching coach would look good working with Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine. Those guys were pretty much pitching coaches themselves, so of course it'd rub off on guys like Millwood, Mercker and Neagle, guys who'd have a great year for the Braves but not be able to replicate it consistently for them or replicate it elsewhere. I'm not trying to 100% discredit Mazzone for their success, as I'm sure he played a key role, but I think those guys were going to be good no matter who their coach was. Maddux was already coming off a Cy Young season when he got to Atlanta, IIRC.

Then he comes here and realizes he can't just rock back and forth in the dugout looking like a groundhog on meth and have all of our young arms just magically be better because he's some amazing pitching coach. I don't think Leo fully understood what he was getting into, how dysfunctional it was before he got here and how bad our prospects were. He wasn't dealing with new versions of Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine and it showed.

It had to be humbling and probably embarrassing for him. I'm sure he still thinks of himself as some awesome guru and if people were telling you that for over a decade, you'd probably believe it.

[jcarm]

Didn't we take 2 out 3 from them?

Yes-wouldn't you know that I went to the Friday game that the Orioles lost. It was still a good time with my 3 kids. Nice fireworks after the game.

[MemorialStadKid]

Then he comes here and realizes he can't just rock back and forth in the dugout looking like a groundhog on meth and have all of our young arms just magically be better because he's some amazing pitching coach. I don't think Leo fully understood what he was getting into, how dysfunctional it was before he got here and how bad our prospects were. He wasn't dealing with new versions of Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine and it showed.

It had to be humbling and probably embarrassing for him. I'm sure he still thinks of himself as some awesome guru and if people were telling you that for over a decade, you'd probably believe it.

Wasn't Mazzone considered to be one of the best pitching coaches ever by many different people all around the league?

I found an article that describes his style:

SOURCE: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/20571-atlanta-braves-time-to-bring-leo-mazzone-back

Mazzone has the reputation of having one of the best eyes in spotting mechanical flaws in a pitcher; he also has the reputation for being a stickler for side throwing sessions to keep an arm strong and disciplined with memory (our starters have struggled with injuries and consistency).

With a reputation for being a drill sergeant, even overbearingly abusive at times, he helped Wohlers and Mercker improve their pitching—even with their adverse responses to Mazzone's tactics.

I have seen Mazzone come out of the dugout on a reliever trying to find the strike zone to lambaste him for walking the tying run because he was trying to nick the corners.

Mazzone was also a stickler for living on the outer part of the plate—if the guy was going to hit it out, he's going to have to do it to the opposite field. Sinkers on the outer half usually meant a weak ground ball—a pitcher's best friend with men on.

Does this explain why Matusz lives on the corners and can't ever seem to get inside the zone?

I don't get all the Mazzone hate. The man saw the worst of this organization firsthand and was completely disgusted by it. He worked for a very well-run (constantly in championship contention year after year) organization to the Orioles. Talk about extremes.

We are all accustomed to a certain level of competence in our daily lives. When you are placed in a situation where incompetence reigns supreme we get angry. Think about the incompetence of bad retail locations or a lousy restaurant. Think of how annoyed we sometimes get. Imagine being in that situation ALL of the time.

Mazzone can say whatever he likes about the Orioles. I've had situations in my own life where I had an awful experience because of bad timing. Like coming into a new job when all the "cool" supervisors have moved on. He was right in what he said about the Orioles.

If he were making things up, it would be one thing, but the Orioles WERE horrible and the organization, completely dysfunctional. That cannot be denied or erased from history.

MSK

[Dipper9]

Wasn't Mazzone considered to be one of the best pitching coaches ever by many different people all around the league?

I found an article that describes his style:

SOURCE: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/20571-atlanta-braves-time-to-bring-leo-mazzone-back

Does this explain why Matusz lives on the corners and can't ever seem to get inside the zone?

I don't get all the Mazzone hate. The man saw the worst of this organization firsthand and was completely disgusted by it. He worked for a very well-run (constantly in championship contention year after year) organization to the Orioles. Talk about extremes.

We are all accustomed to a certain level of competence in our daily lives. When you are placed in a situation where incompetence reigns supreme we get angry. Think about the incompetence of bad retail locations or a lousy restaurant. Think of how annoyed we sometimes get. Imagine being in that situation ALL of the time.

Mazzone can say whatever he likes about the Orioles. I've had situations in my own life where I had an awful experience because of bad timing. Like coming into a new job when all the "cool" supervisors have moved on. He was right in what he said about the Orioles.

If he were making things up, it would be one thing, but the Orioles WERE horrible and the organization, completely dysfunctional. That cannot be denied or erased from history.

MSK

He was here for ONE year, and decides to let that one year in Baltimore stress him out? Sounds like HE has the problem!

[vab]

All I know is I didn't see anybody beating his door down after the Orioles let him go. Yeah, there were problems in the organization but Mazzone has to take some responsibility for the results here as well.

[SilentJames]

Hopefully things have changed. I think Andy did a lot to getting stuff in order when he was here, but I think Showalter's presence has been the final step in the right direction.

[DrungoHazewood]

All I know is I didn't see anybody beating his door down after the Orioles let him go. Yeah, there were problems in the organization but Mazzone has to take some responsibility for the results here as well.

No, I really don't think he does. Well, maybe a tiny amount. He was handed a mediocre bunch of talent in an organization that was a total mess, absolute chaos, and expected to just waive a magic wand and fix everything. They didn't even implement his recommendations throughout the organization. The expectations that he was going to step in and start shaving hundreds of runs off the pitchers' totals was a total fantasy.

[Malike]

I think he's still upset for two reasons.

1. The organization was a complete train wreck, and didn't allow him to implement his philosophy throughout the entire organization.

2. He likely ends his baseball career with an ill founded stigma about not being able to turn the Oriole pitching around.

I think those two things leave a real bad taste in his mouth.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[furryburres]

He can criticize the players all he wants. It doesn't matter to me, as his criticisms of the players have basically no bearing on or relevance to today's situation (different coach, different GM, different players, different organization approach to player frustration). So if he wants to compare the Sox to the 2007 Orioles, he can go right ahead. All it does is highlight all of the positive changes that have been made.

What I mean is that, a highly successful and incredibly cerebral and perceptive pitching coach comes in 2007 and notices an organization-wide disrespect, dishonor, and chaos that seems to literally pervade every single corner. To him even more than to us fans, the situation seems hopeless. And then, merely five years later, the organization is operating like smooth machinery, holding those who perform under expectations accountable, demanding respect to its authority figures, winning games, and, most importantly, showing a cohesive team atmosphere where everyone is friends. How is Mazzone highlighting our terrible (no getting around that) past anything BUT a solid glimpse into how amazingly well the rebuild worked on an organizational level?

Let all those have been wronged come forward! My bet is, you won't notice any current Orioles. And that's what's so great.

[olehippi]

I don't disagree with anything he said. It's harsh to hear it, but that was a big problem. I hope that problem has now been isolated and fixed. The whole thing makes me grateful for Buck.

I think he avoided a very factual point. In Atlanta, he had amazing talent to work with. In Baltimore, he had next to nothing. No matter how messed up our chain of command was, that had at least something to do with the contrast.

I think you are trying to read far too much between the lines. Mazzone statement about Baltimore was pretty clear cut, and was completely in response to what he thinks is happening Boston now.

[olehippi]

I think he's still upset for two reasons.

1. The organization was a complete train wreck, and didn't allow him to implement his philosophy throughout the entire organization.

2. He likely ends his baseball career with an ill founded stigma about not being able to turn the Oriole pitching around.

I think those two things leave a real bad taste in his mouth.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Agree 100%. Mazzone was considered "the" pitching guru when he arrived in Baltimore. Also, he came here only because his life-long friend, Sam Perlozzo, was going to be manager. When he left Baltimore, the guru tag had been ripped away....or the truth behind his previous success in Atlanta left fully exposed.

As long-suffering Orioles' fans, I think we can all understand if there is some bitterness in Mazzone's memories of Baltimore.

[BmoreMatt]

I think you are trying to read far too much between the lines. Mazzone statement about Baltimore was pretty clear cut, and was completely in response to what he thinks is happening Boston now.

Yep, you're right I'm probably taking some things out of context here. Like I said, thank goodness for Buck. I think the players are really buying into what he's selling.

[Dark Helmet]

Not really sure how mazzone can compare the 2007 Orioles to this years red sox team. The Red Sox have way more talent than the Orioles did. I don't recall hearing about that team making excuses, they just didn't have the talent. It seems Boston has rubbed off on this current red Sox team. It seems they have this sense of entitlement, and aren't sure how to handle losing...so they whine. From what i gather, this was just another chance for mazzone to badmouth the O's, whether he's right in doing so or not. Personally, I think its unprofessional to badmouth a past employer, no matter how much you dislike them. Could be why mazzone isn't coaching still.

[MemorialStadKid]

He was here for ONE year, and decides to let that one year in Baltimore stress him out? Sounds like HE has the problem!

Is it a stretch to be so disgusted by something it lingers?

Mazzone's great career would be stained by his time in Baltimore. He deserved better.

We have only heard peripheral things about the foolishness of the organization. That stuff sucked reading about it as a fan. Imagine being in the midst of it? Not being able to do your job. Having bosses who ignore your requests. Having close friends mistreated by the same bosses.

No, I don't feel it makes sense to criticize the man for talking about his experiences.

MSK

[Fan4Life]

No, I don't feel it makes sense to criticize the man for talking about his experiences.

MSK

Who's doing that? The theme of this thread is about the tone in the delivery of the information, not the information.