Matt Wieters WAR Is Officially 0.0

[Chavez Ravine]

If they trade him (and that would stun me, honestly) they better have a plan to replace him. And not just some on-paper WAR swap, but also his familiarity with the staff, the fact he's the most durable catcher in baseball, the fact he essentially eliminates the running game. WAR and its underlying framework is valid, but if anyone was going to be underrated it would be someone out of Wieters' mold.

Ahhh...good ‘ol synthetic analysis and critical thinking.

[SilentJames]

The way some people have turned on Wieters is hysterically sad.

Hystera-sad.

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[weams]

The best part of the Molina saved 50 runs in 107 games business?

Rays' pitchers allowed a higher OPS against when he was catching.

And yet we determine the value of Matt Wieters by it. Right.

[SilentJames]

If anyone genuinely believes that Wieters is anywhere near replacement level they are being ridiculous.

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[Can_of_corn]

And yet we determine the value of Matt Wieters by it. Right.

Framing is the new BABIP.

[weams]

The way some people have turned on Wieters is hysterically sad.

Hystera-sad.

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Are you certain it is not just something to complain/troll about. Let's face it, Matt is not what we all expected him to be. He may even be at a net zero games won-lost because of his presence. And Buck may mismanage the pitching well enough not to be the net 15 games over Pythagoras that he was last year. I think that some folk just have fun making a big deal of these things. When they are not.

[anrynike]

On the plus side, he will probably get hot at some point this season. He usually does. Wieters hitting the second half can only be a good thing.

[weams]

On the plus side, he will probably get hot at some point this season. He usually does. Wieters hitting the second half can only be a good thing.

Maybe he is just a post season god like Dempsey.

[joedogg9999]

Go look at his Fangraphs page, they have his WAR at 0.9.

Admittedly his defense has slipped a bit this season but do you really think he is below replacement level like Baseball Reference has him?

Absolutely. The only thing hes above avg at is throwing out runners and who knows how much matt himself is responsible for. Could be the coaching staffs research. His offense is putrid, he calls bad games, and he doesnt help his pitchers get strikes with framing. We should trade him while he still has value

[GoldGlove21]

His contract or lack of) will be a bad situation for the Orioles IMO. If he asks for the moon and you let him walk than it is Angelos being poor and beloved Orioles leaving for a contender. If you trade him than you would need to do it soon to maximize his value (this will not sit well with most casual fans). If you extend him for the money that Boras is likely seeking than you are paying a premium for a defensive minded catcher that is practically worthless offensively. You can't DH him regularly and he is not play first, which is the only position outside of catcher he could play if he gets injured. In addition to the risk factor you might be losing the opportunity to extend Davis or Manny to long term deals.

In short, the Orioles are building for the future, but the opportunity for a real run might be the next couple of years. If the Orioles are not willing to increase payroll than deciding between locking up Davis or Matt might be the real problem. Maybe it is just me, but I have faith that we can afford and land a catch and throw catcher, but I am not sure that we can find and afford other free agent middle of the order bats that are in the career hot zone.

[CA-ORIOLE]

And yet we determine the value of Matt Wieters by it. Right.

WAR doesn't use pitch framing, but I find it odd that anyone of reasonable intelligence would state it can be "anything you want" when several studies have shown certain players to be consistently good at it and others (i.e. Wieters) not so much.

I'm not sure what DRS is seeing with Wieters this year (maybe bunt plays or popups factor in etc.), but he is on pace to allow 10 PB's and 36 WP's this year. You can say that WP's are on the pitcher, but good catcher's do prevent them and I'm guessing it may be something DRS looks at.

Does anybody remember Wieters picking a guy of first base (or third) with a snap throw? I don't, but it's something good catchers do occasionally. I just don't recall Wieter's ever doing it.

It also looks like DRS factors in the pitchers effectiveness in holding runners on base. You could argue the effectiveness of their methodology, but I doubt anybody will argue that many stolen bases are taken off the pitcher. In the case of "Wieters value in shutting down the running game" it looks like some of that value is being chipped away with DRS's methodology and the ability of our pitchers to hold runners (i.e. effective TTP's).

Also, a lot of catchers are hitting better this year. Many of them are in platoons and may not have enough qualified AB's. Run a search on fangraphs utilizing catchers wRC+ and 150 AB's and your going to see Wieter's pretty far down on the bottom. Of course Wieters speed on the basepaths isn't a positive WAR factor.....even for a catcher.

In other words, don't blame rWAR. Nobody was blaming it when it looked good for him.

[weams]

Absolutely. The only thing hes above avg at is throwing out runners and who knows how much matt himself is responsible for. Could be the coaching staffs research. His offense is putrid, he calls bad games, and he doesnt help his pitchers get strikes with framing. We should trade him while he still has value

I'll go with "bad data" for 1000 Alex.

[weams]

WAR doesn't use pitch framing, but I find it odd that anyone of reasonable intelligence would state it can be "anything you want" when several studies have shown certain players to be consistently good at it and others (i.e. Wieters) not so much.

I'm not sure what DRS is seeing with Wieters this year (maybe bunt plays or popups factor in etc.), but he is on pace to allow 10 PB's and 36 WP's this year. You can say that WP's are on the pitcher, but good catcher's do prevent them and I'm guessing it may be something DRS looks at.

Does anybody remember Wieters picking a guy of first base (or third) with a snap throw? I don't, but it's something good catchers do occasionally. I just don't recall Wieter's ever doing it.

It also looks like DRS factors in the pitchers effectiveness in holding runners on base. You could argue the effectiveness of their methodology, but I doubt anybody will argue that many stolen bases are taken off the pitcher. In the case of "Wieters value in shutting down the running game" it looks like some of that value is being chipped away with DRS's methodology and the ability of our pitchers to hold runners (i.e. effective TTP's).

Also, a lot of catchers are hitting better this year. Many of them are in platoons and may not have enough qualified AB's. Run a search on fangraphs utilizing catchers wRC+ and 150 AB's and your going to see Wieter's pretty far down on the bottom. Of course Wieters speed on the basepaths isn't a positive WAR factor.....even for a catcher.

In other words, don't blame rWAR. Nobody was blaming it when it looked good for him.

I don't actually understand pitch framing. And I did not say it could mean anything. I am pretty sure that Matt is not bad defensively.

[Can_of_corn]

His contract or lack of) will be a bad situation for the Orioles IMO. If he asks for the moon and you let him walk than it is Angelos being poor and beloved Orioles leaving for a contender. If you trade him than you would need to do it soon to maximize his value (this will not sit well with most casual fans). If you extend him for the money that Boras is likely seeking than you are paying a premium for a defensive minded catcher that is practically worthless offensively. You can't DH him regularly and he is not play first, which is the only position outside of catcher he could play if he gets injured. In addition to the risk factor you might be losing the opportunity to extend Davis or Manny to long term deals.

In short, the Orioles are building for the future, but the opportunity for a real run might be the next couple of years. If the Orioles are not willing to increase payroll than deciding between locking up Davis or Matt might be the real problem. Maybe it is just me, but I have faith that we can afford and land a catch and throw catcher, but I am not sure that we can find and afford other free agent middle of the order bats that are in the career hot zone.

Most certainly how this season has gone has lowered what I would consider a fair offer for his services.

[Can_of_corn]

I don't actually understand pitch framing. And I did not say it could mean anything. I am pretty sure that Matt is not bad defensively.

I don't think Max Marchi understands it either.