Lough... leadoff... why?

[weams]

Ha! That's hilarious. You learned from Trea: walking isn't so much a skill as it is a desire. The difference between Adam Jones and Ted Williams is the right coach.

Actually, El says that it is not will that makes it happen. It is appropriate training. AT THE MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL BY COACHES!

If the coach (manager) demands it, it will be so.

[BradyBunch]

What does that have to do with his lack of on-base ability?

a .340 line of OBP is decent for 75% of the teams out there and that's what he carried in the minors. Throw in his defense and speed. You got a player that screams as typical lead off.

I also don't discount his ability because he has a lot of factors that reminds me of Brady. Brady had a OBS in the .310 range before he was tapped to lead off in 1992 and he had a break out year at age 28. In fact from 1991 to 1992 Brady increased his walks from 38 to 98. But that goes back to my point, learning to walk or take walks is easy to teach.

[Can_of_corn]

a .340 line of OBP is decent for 75% of the teams out there and that's what he carried in the minors. Throw in his defense and speed. You got a player that screams as typical lead off.

I also don't discount his ability because he has a lot of factors that reminds me of Brady. Brady had a OBS in the .310 range before he was tapped to lead off in 1992 and he had a break out year at age 28. In fact from 1991 to 1992 Brady increased his walks from 38 to 98. But that goes back to my point, learning to walk or take walks is easy to teach.

Well then since having a high OBP is seen as a good thing why don't all MLB players walk 80+ times a season if it is an easy skill to master?

[BradyBunch]

Wait... what? MLB teams never call up anyone unless they're going to step right into the lineup and be productive? Pretty sure I could find 100 counter-examples in an hour. Maybe a half hour. Middling players constantly get called up to be role players. Almost every single day. The Orioles weren't concerned about Xavier Avery's service time. They needed a player and they called him up. You can't tell me the 70-win Royals went all of Lough's many years in AAA never needing an outfielder.

No, I said a team isn't gonna call up a player if he's not gonna be used on some basis. Perfect example is Gausman. He was called up, was used and stunk and got sent back down. Another example of a player being called up, then sent back down until his options were used was Brian Matusz. Matusz has no options left. He can't be sent to AAA to switch back from the LOOGY role to Starter. So Matusz has been type casted into LOOGY role because the O's were willy nilly about his options.

No, KC didn't need Lough in 2010, 2011, 2012. They carried 5 outfielders each year. They needed him in 2013 and he was called up.

David Lough never even got a September cup of coffee until he was 26. He didn't get called up mainly because he was a middle of the pack PCL hitter. Even in 2012 when he OPS'd .850 he was something like the 6th-best Omaha Storm batter. In 2012 he was .060 OPS points worse than an average Omaha hitter.

Umm, Hosmer got called up in May so his 1.107 OPS was only from 26 games. Whittleman played one game.. Mike Aviles played 35 games. So he was 4th best on the team. Of which 1 was an OF and that was Cain. The other 2 played 1st and 2nd.

Yes his 2012 his OPS in 2012 was bad. But OPS for a lead off guy is a secondary stat.

[BradyBunch]

Well then since having a high OBP is seen as a good thing why don't all MLB players walk 80+ times a season if it is an easy skill to master?

Because most don't bother to do it and then you have a situation of it's a team mentality problem. Be it the hitting coach or manager style of play.

O's were 2nd worse in the AL in 2013. 53% of the BB came from 4 players. So that what you will from that. To me it screams as if certain players will take the walk if it's given to them. While others will just hack away.

[BradyBunch]

Davis' walks increased probably in large part because pitchers got a lot more careful pitching to him - as he became a much better hitter than people expected.

When Davis slowed down in the second half his walks didn't drop. He was walking at a better rate then he was in the 1st half of the season. Davis was less selective in the 2nd half and his average dropped off a cliff.

So it actually comes down to Davis was selective and was willing to walk like he did in Sept of 2012.

[Can_of_corn]

Because most don't bother to do it and then you have a situation of it's a team mentality problem. Be it the hitting coach or manager style of play.

O's were 2nd worse in the AL in 2013. 53% of the BB came from 4 players. So that what you will from that. To me it screams as if certain players will take the walk if it's given to them. While others will just hack away.

Baseball players might not be, on average, the most educated group of folks you will meet but I guarantee you they have noticed the connection between OBP and $ by this point. Just look at Choo, OBP is really the only skill he brings to the table and dude got paid.

Are you telling me that there are AAAA guys out there that could be holding down MLB jobs if they just bothered to learn to walk and they would rather toil in AAA?

If was easy then the vast majority of them would be doing it.

[BradyBunch]

Ha! That's hilarious. You learned from Trea: walking isn't so much a skill as it is a desire. The difference between Adam Jones and Ted Williams is the right coach.

No, I was just pointing out people on here think hitting is about just getting hits. I prefer a player that can walk and hit. All the O's have the same hitting coach. Davis, Markakis (well he always walked), McLouth and Wieters accounted for 53% of the BB for the O's. Markakis and Wieters were down on their averages but at least got 40 BB or more. McLouth walked more then 50 times for the first since 2010 and doubled his BB from 2012. So it's a player mentality willing to wait for a pitch and being disciplined.

Jones doesn't have that discipline and that is his mentality. That's not a teaching failure or a learning failure. It's Jones doesn't care to walk, he wants to hack away.

[Can_of_corn]

No, I was just pointing out people on here think hitting is about just getting hits. I prefer a player that can walk and hit. All the O's have the same hitting coach. Davis, Markakis (well he always walked), McLouth and Wieters accounted for 53% of the BB for the O's. Markakis and Wieters were down on their averages but at least got 40 BB or more. McLouth walked more then 50 times for the first since 2010 and doubled his BB from 2012. So it's a player mentality willing to wait for a pitch and being disciplined.

Jones doesn't have that discipline and that is his mentality. That's not a teaching failure or a learning failure. It's Jones doesn't care to walk, he wants to hack away.

Or it is that Jones doesn't have the ability to identify pitches and control the strike zone that the other players do. You think Jones wants to swing at those sliders in the dirt? You think that he sees those as a pitch he can drive?

[BradyBunch]

Baseball players might not be, on average, the most educated group of folks you will meet but I guarantee you they have noticed the connection between OBP and $ by this point. Just look at Choo, OBP is really the only skill he brings to the table and dude got paid.

Are you telling me that there are AAAA guys out there that could be holding down MLB jobs if they just bothered to learn to walk and they would rather toil in AAA?

If was easy then the vast majority of them would be doing it.

Choo does more then walk. He also hits for average, steals and has some pop. He's Markakis a few years ago.

Yes, there are AAAA guys who put up gawdy numbers in AAA who struggle in MLB because they fail to be disciplined at the plate and put up god awful numbers. Chris Davis with Texas is a good example. He killed AAA pitching but couldn't translate that in the majors because he was chasing it. He came to the O's and was a patient and disciplined at the plate. It was a night and day situation with him. Was it Jim Presley? More then likely.

It's all about being disciplined at the plate. You may only walk 25-30% of the time when doing that but you are chasing balls and swinging at crap which translates to comparable numbers to what you had in the minors.

Most AAAA players don't understand that. They think the way to get hits is to have gawdy numbers and pitchers will just walk you. Can't pull the cart without the horse and the horse is discipline.

[BradyBunch]

Or it is that Jones doesn't have the ability to identify pitches and control the strike zone that the other players do. You think Jones wants to swing at those sliders in the dirt? You think that he sees those as a pitch he can drive?

If Jones has a problem identifying a pitch which is a standard in the league that's a big issue. So I am not buying that. He has no problem identifying them when they are flat or "hang" up over the plate. So he's an aggressive hitter (undisciplined). He should know by now if it's a 0-2, 1-2, 2-2 count, slider down and away.

But this clears it up a bit more.. starts at 0:35.

[video=youtube_share;qiq2t5wXO9A]

[Can_of_corn]

It doesn't clear it up. Why would Jones, who isn't an idiot, swing at a pitch in the dirt if he could tell it was a pitch in the dirt?

You think he goes, well I could take a walk or I could swing at this pitch that I have no chance of making contract with I choose the latter?

I am not sure why you think commanding the strike zone is easy, or for that matter why you think most players are too stupid to bother learning.

[BradyBunch]

It doesn't clear it up. Why would Jones, who isn't an idiot, swing at a pitch in the dirt if he could tell it was a pitch in the dirt?

Why for the last 4 or 5 years has Jones always been a sucker for it. Oh that's right.. he's aggressive at the plate. Did you not get that when I said it the first time?

He feels he's being paid to hit. But every time he strikes out with a guy on 2nd or 3rd with 1 out because he's chasing a pitch he's screwing the team.

It's the out pitch everybody knows. Jones has had 4-5 years to learn to lay off it. He choose not to.

You think he goes, well I could take a walk or I could swing at this pitch that I have no chance of making contract with I choose the latter?

I think he sees a pitch which he thinks is gonna be close to the zone and swings at it (being aggressive) trying to pull it. He did well early in 2013 taking it the other way or laying off it. Then it broke down.

I am not sure why you think commanding the strike zone is easy, or for that matter why you think most players are too stupid to bother learning.

I never said stupid. They are too lazy and think they are paid to drive in 100 plus RBIs and 30 plus HRs which goes back to an issue MLB help caused in the '90s and the roid era when offensive numbers were priority over the real game of baseball.

[Can_of_corn]

Why for the last 4 or 5 years has Jones always been a sucker for it. Oh that's right.. he's aggressive at the plate. Did you not get that when I said it the first time?

He feels he's being paid to hit. But every time he strikes out with a guy on 2nd or 3rd with 1 out because he's chasing a pitch he's screwing the team.

It's the out pitch everybody knows. Jones has had 4-5 years to learn to lay off it. He choose not to.

I think he sees a pitch which he thinks is gonna be close to the zone and swings at it (being aggressive) trying to pull it. He did well early in 2013 taking it the other way or laying off it. Then it broke down.

I never said stupid. They are too lazy and think they are paid to drive in 100 plus RBIs and 30 plus HRs. They are paid to win games.

Ohh, you don't think they are stupid, you think the top .0001% of ball players are lazy, got it. My mistake, not stupid, just lazy, got it.

[BradyBunch]

Ohh, you don't think they are stupid, you think the top .0001% of ball players are lazy, got it. My mistake, not stupid, just lazy, got it.

When they get to the show and get their contracts.. hell ya. No team is gonna sit a player making millions or DFA them. So they have no "competition" from players in AAA or AA who want to be there.:thumbsup1: