Jump to content

Mussina does not make my HOF ballot

wildcard

By wildcard
in MLB

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 430
  • Created
  • Last Reply
DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

Posted
Posted
Huh??? Are you trying to say that few hof pitchers have ever thrown a no hitter? If not what are you saying? :confused:

Ubaldo has as many no-hitters as Jim Palmer.

Roughly 46 of the 287 no-hitters have been thrown by Hall of Famers, but 16 were thrown by Ryan, Koufax, Mathewson, Spahn. That means that roughly 30 HOF pitchers out of 71 have thrown no-hitters. That's 60% of Hall of Fame pitchers who didn't throw a no-hitter, give or take.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Old#5fan Hangout Grand Counsel

Old#5fan

Posted
Posted
Didn't we already establish that you do not have to be a great pitcher to throw a no hitter?[/quote/]. Now that is just an absurd attempt at circular logic as you well know! If high number of innings automatically equate to more no hitters how come Jamey Moyer and Jim Kaat didn't throw a bunch of them? What nonsense !!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Palmoripken Hangout Grand Counsel

Palmoripken

Posted
Posted
Throwing 7 requires a unique skill set though.

Certainly. Anyhow, I think I look at it like this. A no hitter/perfect game is a great individual accomplishment but a pitcher having one and another having zero shouldn't be a demerit against the latter if he otherwise pitched very consistently. As I got at, Greg Maddux is considered by many to be Nolan Ryan's superior as a pitcher and Maddux never had one. Of the 28 pitches who have thrown perfect games, only 5: Addie Joss, Cy Young, Jim Bunning, Catfish Hunter, and Sandy Koufax are HoFers. You know the closest I can remember an Oriole pitcher coming to a no hitter since the 1991 combined effort was Daniel Cabrera and no one's calling him a great pitcher. A lot of great pitchers have thrown no hitters but a lot of great ones have not. Now that said I really want to see one. Came so close when Moose nearly got the perfecto back in '97 which was very exciting to watch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Palmoripken Hangout Grand Counsel

Palmoripken

Posted
Posted
Ubaldo has as many no-hitters as Jim Palmer.

Roughly 46 of the 287 no-hitters have been thrown by Hall of Famers, but 16 were thrown by Ryan, Koufax, Mathewson, Spahn. That means that roughly 30 HOF pitchers out of 71 have thrown no-hitters. That's 60% of Hall of Fame pitchers who didn't throw a no-hitter, give or take.

Charlie Robertson has as many perfect games as Sandy Koufax. It's a nice individual accomplishment but all it really tells you about is how a guy was on for a certain day and also how his defense was. Hell we all know the Dock Ellis story which I am glad to report turns out does have footage(new Dock Ellis documentary that I saw on Showtime on demand last week). Lots of great pitchers throw no hitters but lots of not so great pitchers throw them too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
OFFNY Hangout Grand Counsel

OFFNY

Posted
Posted
Charlie Robertson has as many perfect games as Sandy Koufax. It's a nice individual accomplishment but all it really tells you about is how a guy was on for a certain day and also how his defense was. Hell, we all know the Dock Ellis story which I am glad to report turns out does have footage(new Dock Ellis documentary that I saw on Showtime on demand last week). Lots of great pitchers throw no hitters but lots of not so great pitchers throw them too.

We also have a thread on it from the summer, with an accompanying article:

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php/141717-The-Long-Strange-Trip-of-Dock-Ellis-%28Outside-the-Lines%29?highlight=Dock+Ellis

o

The Long, Strange Trip of Dock Ellis

(by Patrick Hruby)

Meet the man behind baseball's most psychedelic myth.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=Dock-Ellis

It's a great read.

I'll bump it, and it would be greatly appreciated if you would comment on what you saw on the Showtime special.

Patrick :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Palmoripken Hangout Grand Counsel

Palmoripken

Posted
Posted
We also have a thread on it from the summer, with an accompanying article:

o

The Long, Strange Trip of Dock Ellis

(by Patrick Hruby)

Meet the man behind baseball's most psychedelic myth.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=Dock-Ellis

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php/141717-The-Long-Strange-Trip-of-Dock-Ellis-%28Outside-the-Lines%29?highlight=Dock+Ellis

It's a great read.

I'll bump it, and it would be greatly appreciated if you would comment on what you saw on the Showtime special.

Patrick :)

Sure thing. I missed your thread from this summer. Must have debuted while I was out of country.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Old#5fan Hangout Grand Counsel

Old#5fan

Posted
Posted
Ubaldo has as many no-hitters as Jim Palmer.

Roughly 46 of the 287 no-hitters have been thrown by Hall of Famers, but 16 were thrown by Ryan, Koufax, Mathewson, Spahn. That means that roughly 30 HOF pitchers out of 71 have thrown no-hitters. That's 60% of Hall of Fame pitchers who didn't throw a no-hitter, give or take.

Yeah well that is one way to view those stats but that is a vastly high % of HOF pitchers (40%) vrs non-HOF pitchers (my guess would be 1% or less of major league pitchers who have thrown a no hitter at the major league level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

Posted
Posted
Charlie Robertson has as many perfect games as Sandy Koufax. It's a nice individual accomplishment but all it really tells you about is how a guy was on for a certain day and also how his defense was. Hell we all know the Dock Ellis story which I am glad to report turns out does have footage(new Dock Ellis documentary that I saw on Showtime on demand last week). Lots of great pitchers throw no hitters but lots of not so great pitchers throw them too.

Bobo Holloman has a no-hitter and outside of that start he threw 56.1 innings of a 6.07.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

Posted
Posted
Yeah well that is one way to view those stats but that is a vastly high % of HOF pitchers (40%) vrs non-HOF pitchers (my guess would be 1% or less of major league pitchers who have thrown a no hitter at the major league level.

I'd guess that very good pitchers do throw more no-hitters than bad pitchers. But most very good pitchers don't throw one. You simply can't use one game as a measure of greatness unless you've narrowed your focus so far as to be nearly meaningless. Don Larsen is a good example - a relatively poor Major League pitcher, with 1-10 and 3-21 seasons on his record. But, of course, a very famous no hitter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Palmoripken Hangout Grand Counsel

Palmoripken

Posted
Posted
Bobo Holloman has a no-hitter and outside of that start he threw 56.1 innings of a 6.07.

Yep. Plenty of cases like that. It's not that throwing a no hitter is being scoffed at. It's just that it's silly to use to view a pitcher's entire skill set and career resume. It's like saying Cy Young is the best pitcher ever because he has the most wins.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Palmoripken Hangout Grand Counsel

Palmoripken

Posted
Posted
And some good pitchers thru a lot of 1 and 2 hitters. I'm not sure a no hitter (or lack of) is an indication of anything.

I think Ryan started close to 800 games and some batters started their swing when Nolan nodded his head to the catcher. His 7 is very impressive.

Incredibly long career. He was the last player born in the 40's I believe to retire I believe and he was born in '47.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Old#5fan Hangout Grand Counsel

Old#5fan

Posted
Posted
I'd guess that very good pitchers do throw more no-hitters than bad pitchers. But most very good pitchers don't throw one. You simply can't use one game as a measure of greatness unless you've narrowed your focus so far as to be nearly meaningless. Don Larsen is a good example - a relatively poor Major League pitcher, with 1-10 and 3-21 seasons on his record. But, of course, a very famous no hitter.

You don't need to guess in your first statement. You own stats proved it already! 40% of HOF pitchers have thrown no hitters. That means that likely less than one percent of all major league pitchers throughout major league history have hurled a major league no hitter as there have only been 287 thrown!

Of course not all no hitters have been thrown by great pitchers. That is beyond ridiculous to think that I or anyone else would believe otherwise. The whol point that you seem to me missing here is WAAAY more HOF pitchers (% wise) have thrown them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
OFFNY Hangout Grand Counsel

OFFNY

Posted
Posted
Charlie Robertson has as many perfect games as Sandy Koufax. It's a nice individual accomplishment but all it really tells you about is how a guy was on for a certain day and also how his defense was. Hell we all know the Dock Ellis story which I am glad to report turns out does have footage(new Dock Ellis documentary that I saw on Showtime on demand last week). Lots of great pitchers throw no hitters but lots of not so great pitchers throw them too.
Bobo Holloman has a no-hitter and outside of that start he threw 56.1 innings of a 6.07.

While we're on the subject ......

This is a strange, but true story:

9 years before Don Larsen threw his perfect game in the World Series, Bill Bevens threw 8.67 innings of no-hit ball in Game Four of the 1947 World Series. He was ONE OUT away from immortality. Bevens walked two batters (one of them intentionally.) Veteren Cookie Lavagetto entered the game as a pinch-hitter. Lavagetto hit a double, scoring both runners, and winning the contest for the Dodgers by a score of 3-2 with their only hit of the game.

Bevens never played another game in the majors again, and it was Lavagetto's last hit of his career, as the Dodgers released him the following March, and he retired.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing

  • Posts

    • Malike
      Extension Priorities

      By Malike · Posted

      Hopefully, if they have to trade Gunnar it's with a year and a half of control instead of a rental to maximize the return.
    • maybenxtyr
      Extension Priorities

      By maybenxtyr · Posted

      Gunnar would be the main one at this point. It's going to take the Witt contract plus, but he's the kind of player that you can build around on a 10 year deal.   There's a plenty of other options but I'd rather start with him. If he's not interested then you move on...all depending on what ownership will go for as well.
    • Malike
      Extension Priorities

      By Malike · Posted

      Just look at the Braves. Stuck with all those players and in 2nd place.
    • banks703
      Gunnar Henderson 2024

      By banks703 · Posted

      In a traditional/historical sense, Gunnar would more likely reside in the 3, 4 or 5 spots in the lineup. But this new-age baseball that we have seen evolve over the last few years does seem to place more of a priority on getting your best hitters the most ABs. As others have mentioned, look at Soto in his career, look at Ohtani, etc. But what hasn't been mentioned (that I've seen, maybe I missed it) is that this new era of baseball also shows us that a sub .200 hitter can be successful in the leadoff spot when they mash like Schwarber does for the Phils. I think it's just as likely that Hyder keeps penciling in Gunnar in the top spot because Gunnar feels comfortable there but also because of his ability to set the table for the rest of the lineup to start the game. That is really what the leadoff guy's job is to do. He's lead off with a homer what, five times this year? That's five games where the O's were on the board just one batter into their turn to hit. For a younger lineup like the O's have now, I think it's extremely important that they use whatever advantage they think they have as early in the game as possible. We've seen them struggle to score runs early in a lot of the games this year. They don't ever seem to lay down but battling from behind is not the ideal position to be, especially at the frequency that has been so far this year. I suspect that increased pressure may eventually catch up with them. So, yeah, if Gunnar is their best power hitter but also gives the team the best opportunity to score early, I'm fine with him hitting first in the order even if it means fewer guys on base when he's at the plate.   
    • Too Tall
      Bring on the robots

      By Too Tall · Posted

      Hell my Golden Retriever could call a better game than last night. Trouble is, you'd have a lot of spit balls! 
    • Sports Guy
      Bring on the robots

      By Sports Guy · Posted

      I think Kyle Gibson has it right: The more I hear about the robot umps, the less I like the idea but I think technology should be used and replay would be good.  Should be very easy and very fast…ala tennis.
    • SteveA
      Why does it so often appear that Oriole hitters do nothing for 5-6 innings?

      By SteveA · Posted

      There is something to what Roy says. Overall in MLB this year: vs a starter 1st time through the order, all MLB teams OPS .694 vs a starter 2nd time through the order, all MLB teams OPS .694 vs a starter 3rd time through the order, all MLB teams OPS .755 [4th time and beyond, only 114 plate appearances in all of MLB this year:  .725] So it is expected that you will do your best work the 3rd time through the order vs a starter, and will be a bit worse off the first time through. The Orioles on the season (keep in mind we are a way better than average offense so our overall #s should in general be better than the MLB average): 1st time:  .658 OPS  2nd time:  .817 OPS 3rd time:  .816 OPS 4th+ (7 plate appearances): 1.572 OPS So we are a very slow starting team, so far this year.   We have a well above average offense that is actually significantly below average the first time through the order vs a starter. I don't know why this is... but so far it has been the case.   I'll not that before the Seattle series the numbers were even more extreme, we OPSed just .615 1TTTO when I looked it up last week.   Maybe with time this will even out, but the point is, Roy isn't imagining things.   At the start of the game, we are a below average MLB offense this year and as the game progresses we get way above average.  

  • Popular Contributors

  • Popular Now

×
×
  • Create New...