Mussina does not make my HOF ballot

[Frobby]

Double-blind tests of wine usually end up with the $500 bottle indistinguishable from the $50 bottle, except maybe to the sommelier who's spent many, many years training himself to look for very subtle differences.

Someone ran an experiment where they poured identical bottles of mid-grade wine into bottles marked something like $15 and $150. Then they ran CAT scans of people's brains as they consumed the wine. The people drinking what they thought was $150 wine actually had more activity in the pleasure centers of their brain than when they were drinking the (identical) $15 wine. So just put your MP3 player underneath a high-end turntable and you'll think everything is better.

I've decided it's actually a good thing not to have really keen senses, unless you're Ted Williams or something. I'm pretty happy with my CD player and a $25 bottle of wine, and I went a long time before buying an HDTV and still spend more time watching the non-HD TV in my bedroom than I do watching the "better" set downstairs, without it really bothering me at all. And I can barely detect unpleasant odors, which is a good thing considering what my dog is up to these days; it drives my wife crazy.

[Number5]

Ryan is truly in a class by himself: even 20+ years after his retirement he has 52% more walks than the #2 guy on the all time list (Steve Carlton). He walked more batters than Steve Carlton and Dwight Gooden combined.

Daniel Cabrera led the AL in walks in 2006 and 2007, with 104 and 108. Ryan had 10 different seasons with at least 108 walks, and twice topped 200 walks. In 2006 Cabrera walked 104 in only 148 innings, but in both 1970 and 1970 Ryan walked more batters per inning in 152 and 131 innings.

Didn't he also lead the majors in home runs given up to Mark Belanger?

I was never a big Nolan Ryan fan until the time came that he was the only guy older than me in the majors... that's when I wanted him to keep on going! :laughlol:

[DrungoHazewood]

Seriously?

Come on!

You are clearly going to have to get someone else to put it under there if you expect it to work.

Yes, that's what I meant!

Didn't he also lead the majors in home runs given up to Mark Belanger?

I was never a big Nolan Ryan fan until the time came that he was the only guy older than me in the majors... that's when I wanted him to keep on going! :laughlol:

Ryan is an obvious Hall of Famer, at least to me. I'm a big, maybe even huge, Hall guy. His durability was off the charts. If he'd pitched in Walter Johnson's era he might have thrown 500 innings a year.

But it does irk me when people say he's one of the very best pitchers of all time. You almost have to put your thumb over the walk column to even start that argument. Ryan had six seasons with a walk rate higher than 2014 Ubaldo Jimenez.

[POR]

Yeah and it wasn't good enough. True HOFers are usually good enough and then some.

You mean like Randy Johnson?

To recap Mussina's four starts in the 1997 playoffs.

He beat Randy Johnson in game 1 of the ALDS pitching 7 innings, 2 runs, 5 hits, 0 walks and 9 Ks. Johnson got hit hard.

In game 4 on 3 days rest he beat Randy Johnson again, Mussina pitched 7 innings, 1 run, 2 hits and 7 strikeouts as the Orioles defeated Seattle 3 games to 1.

Against the Indians in game 3, Mussina pitched 7 innings, 1 run, 3 hits and 15 ks. Obviously it was Mussina's fault the Orioles lost 2-1 in the 12th inning.

In game 6 on 3 days rest, Mussina pitched 8 innings, no runs, 1 hit, and 10 strikeouts. Again clearly Mussina was to blame again for the Orioles losing 1-0 in 11 innings.

[Old#5fan]

Ryan is truly in a class by himself: even 20+ years after his retirement he has 52% more walks than the #2 guy on the all time list (Steve Carlton). He walked more batters than Steve Carlton and Dwight Gooden combined.

Daniel Cabrera led the AL in walks in 2006 and 2007, with 104 and 108. Ryan had 10 different seasons with at least 108 walks, and twice topped 200 walks. In 2006 Cabrera walked 104 in only 148 innings, but in both 1970 and 1970 Ryan walked more batters per inning in 152 and 131 innings.

Yeah that is an absurd comparison as Daniel Cabrera was a borderline or marginal major league who ended up in a Mexican League which is probably where he belonged in the first place. And you act like Steve Carlton was a bad pitcher just becaused he walked a lot of people also. Next thing you know you will be claiming Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle are bad HOFers becausev they led the league in strikeouts or struck out as many times in a season as Mark Reynolds or Chris Davis. Totally out there in leftfield. Yet you tout borderline candidates like Mussina who belongs where he is right now when it comes to Cooperstown.

[Can_of_corn]

Yeah that is an absurd comparison as Daniel Cabrera was a borderline or marginal major league who ended up in a Mexican League which is probably where he belonged in the first place. And you act like Steve Carlton was a bad pitcher just becaused he walked a lot of people also. Next thing you know you will be claiming Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle are bad HOFers becausev they led the league in strikeouts or struck out as many times in a season as Mark Reynolds or Chris Davis. Totally out there in leftfield. Yet you tout borderline candidates like Mussina who belongs where he is right now when it comes to Cooperstown.

Right, Ryan walked more guys then a marginal major league player. That was exactly the point he was trying to make.

Ryan was a freak, he was a sideshow attraction.

[Redskins Rick]

Yeah that is an absurd comparison as Daniel Cabrera was a borderline or marginal major league who ended up in a Mexican League which is probably where he belonged in the first place. And you act like Steve Carlton was a bad pitcher just becaused he walked a lot of people also. Next thing you know you will be claiming Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle are bad HOFers becausev they led the league in strikeouts or struck out as many times in a season as Mark Reynolds or Chris Davis. Totally out there in leftfield. Yet you tout borderline candidates like Mussina who belongs where he is right now when it comes to Cooperstown.

Yes its absurd for you to get past your hatred of the man, and look unbiasedly at his career and not agree he belongs in the HOF.

[Frobby]

Yeah that is an absurd comparison as Daniel Cabrera was a borderline or marginal major league who ended up in a Mexican League which is probably where he belonged in the first place. And you act like Steve Carlton was a bad pitcher just becaused he walked a lot of people also. Next thing you know you will be claiming Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle are bad HOFers becausev they led the league in strikeouts or struck out as many times in a season as Mark Reynolds or Chris Davis. Totally out there in leftfield. Yet you tout borderline candidates like Mussina who belongs where he is right now when it comes to Cooperstown.

The point is, Ryan's high walk rate absolutely prevented him from being a truly great pitcher. That's why his ERA's weren't that spectacular even though he struck out a lot of guys and did not allow many hits per 9 innings. Ryan led the league in lowest hits per nine innings 12 times, but led the league in ERA and WHIP only twice. That's because he put so many guys on base via walks, and a fair number of those walks led to runs.

As I said, I still believe Ryan belongs in the Hall of Fame. But there were many pitchers who were more effective than he was, while he was pitching.

[Old#5fan]

The point is, Ryan's high walk rate absolutely prevented him from being a truly great pitcher. That's why his ERA's weren't that spectacular even though he struck out a lot of guys and did not allow many hits per 9 innings. Ryan led the league in lowest hits per nine innings 12 times, but led the league in ERA and WHIP only twice. That's because he put so many guys on base via walks, and a fair number of those walks led to runs.

As I said, I still believe Ryan belongs in the Hall of Fame. But there were many pitchers who were more effective than he was, while he was pitching.

Your point is well made and I cannot disagree with it but let me ask you one thing? Did Mussina ever lead the league in ANYTHING? If not Imo that should say it all right there as far as HOF entrance. You should not enter a place with the best of the best when you never actually lead the league in any positive stat.

[Can_of_corn]

Your point is well made and I cannot disagree with it but let me ask you one thing? Did Mussina ever lead the league in ANYTHING? If not Imo that should say it all right there as far as HOF entrance. You should not enter a place with the best of the best when you never actually lead the league in any positive stat.

Wins in '95, winning percentage in '92, games started in '96, innings in 2000, shut outs in '95, FIP in '01, BB9 in '95.

[Redskins Rick]

Your point is well made and I cannot disagree with it but let me ask you one thing? Did Mussina ever lead the league in ANYTHING? If not Imo that should say it all right there as far as HOF entrance. You should not enter a place with the best of the best when you never actually lead the league in any positive stat.

Your point isn't well made and many posters have pointed out numerous times, how wrong you are and why Mussina belongs on the ballot and in the HOF.

You chose to ignore and stick to the same ole tired stick of your.

[Old#5fan]

Wins in '95, winning percentage in '92, games started in '96, innings in 2000, shut outs in '95, FIP in '01, BB9 in '95.

Seems he had one great hof worthy season in 95. Then again so did Denny McLain when he won 31 games. I just don't see those league leading accomplishments you mentioned being HOF worthy when that is the best or most outstanding league leading categories he achieved. Sorry he would never get my vote.

[Can_of_corn]

Seems he had one great hof worthy season in 95. Then again so did Denny McLain when he won 31 games. I just don't see those league leading accomplishments you mentioned being HOF worthy when that is the best or most outstanding league leading categories he achieved. Sorry he would never get my vote.

You asked if he had led the league, I showed where he had.

All I was doing was saving you the thirty seconds it would have taken to do the search yourself.

Your welcome.

[Redskins Rick]

Seems he had one great hof worthy season in 95. Then again so did Denny McLain when he won 31 games. I just don't see those league leading accomplishments you mentioned being HOF worthy when that is the best or most outstanding league leading categories he achieved. Sorry he would never get my vote.

Clearly, he has the stats, he could have 10 nohitters, and you wont still think he was unworthy.

Why you have so much hatred for the guy, is crazy.

You want reasons.

1. 7 Gold Gloves. Maddux is the only pitcher who fielded the mound better than Mussina did, in his ERA.

2. ERA career is 3.68. However, AL East average for that ERA is 4.53. Glavine is in the HOF, and with a 3.54 ERA in a non-DH National League spot.

3. Tied with 12th best and Jim Palmer for winning percentage. .638. Of the 71 pitchers in the HOF, only 22 got the magic 300.

4. 2813 strikesouts, which would put him 13th among the HOF pitchers.

5. WAR of 83

6. 57 complete games, one ahead of Glavine.

Also, according to baseball reference:

Start with the fact that his HOF standards are 54, as compared to 50 for the average HOFer. His HOF Monitor is 121, with a likely HOFer being over 100. His gray ink is 244, 23rd highest all-time for pitchers, with an average HOFer at 185.

[Old#5fan]

Clearly, he has the stats, he could have 10 nohitters, and you wont still think he was unworthy.

Why you have so much hatred for the guy, is crazy.

You want reasons.

1. 7 Gold Gloves. Maddux is the only pitcher who fielded the mound better than Mussina did, in his ERA.

2. ERA career is 3.68. However, AL East average for that ERA is 4.53. Glavine is in the HOF, and with a 3.54 ERA in a non-DH National League spot.

3. Tied with 12th best and Jim Palmer for winning percentage. .638. Of the 71 pitchers in the HOF, only 22 got the magic 300.

4. 2813 strikesouts, which would put him 13th among the HOF pitchers.

5. WAR of 83

6. 57 complete games, one ahead of Glavine.

Also, according to baseball reference:

Sure he was a very good and durable pitcher for a long period of time but so was Jim Kaat who won 16 Gold gloves had 3.45 era with over 2400 k's and 283 wins and he's not in the HOF.