The Bos stickin it to Peter again.

[rolliefingers]

Do you actually believe that there are owners that provide budgets and don't have anything else to say about player acquisitions? I think you're the one who doesn't get it.

I can tell you this: There are, by my cursory count, 16 different teams who have been to the World Series since Angelos took over. We are not one of them. I also recall that EVERY ML team except the Devil Rays have had at least one winning season since 1998.

That's the only thing that matters. Meddle, don't meddle...who cares. Just win, baby.

[NewMarketSean]

The problem Angelos faces is this. He is the bad guy no matter what.

say he doesn't nix the deal. You know what the board is saying tomorrow?

"How can ANGELOS let Brian get away for a marginal replacement and a sketchy power hitter?!"

Flanagan won't get blamed for a bad trade, nor will Duquette. Angelos will.

The bottom line is he was probably right. Is it systemic of the problems surrounding the FO, yes. Should he not HAVE to do that, yes.

But Brian Roberts will come running out of that dugout this summer, and for at least 3 more summers and we have one person to thank for that: Peter Angelos.

You are 100% wrong.

People don't bash owners when bad trades are made, they bash the GM's because the owners are not SUPPOSED to have anything to do with trades.

Unless Angelos demanded that a trade happen -- like the Bautista/Grimsley deal was rumored to be -- Angelos is usually safe from any backlash from fans after a bad trade.

Flanagan and Duquette are getting bashed a lot around here and deservedly so. They have made some boneheaded mistakes. Perlozzo is saying stupid things and he is getting called out for it on the boards too.

The only time Angelos gets called out is when he sticks his nose in business he's not supposed to be involved in -- like calling off the Roberts/Penn deal -- or saying something totally stupid, like after the protest last year.

And yeah, when looking over the last 10 years, Angelos is the one who gets blasted because he's the one who has been the one constant through it all. And he deserves to be blasted for it because he's done a lot to put us where we are today.

But to say that ANGELOS would get blasted after a bad trade is dumb.

[DrungoHazewood]

I can tell you this: There are, by my cursory count, 16 different teams who have been to the World Series since Angelos took over. We are not one of them. I also recall that EVERY ML team except the Devil Rays have had at least one winning season since 1998.

That's the only thing that matters. Meddle, don't meddle...who cares. Just win, baby.

Nitpicking, but the Pirates haven't had a winning year since I was in college, in 1992.

[frankpembleton]

The problem Angelos faces is this. He is the bad guy no matter what.

say he doesn't nix the deal. You know what the board is saying tomorrow?

"How can ANGELOS let Brian get away for a marginal replacement and a sketchy power hitter?!"

I don't find any evidence of that line of thinking on this board...

[SilentJames]

I don't find any evidence of that line of thinking on this board...

THIS board. this board isn't the general population. we make up a very small percentage.

I know we like to think that we are the end-all-be-all of discussion around here, but Angelos would get slammed for letting Roberts go by the general population aka the majority.

And if you think i'm wrong then why does Angelos not get a pass for Syd thrift's mistakes? its still Angelos' team and he has final say on all major deals, AS ANY OWNER WOULD.

Is he too involved, yes. No one is trying to argue that he isn't. But he made the right call this time. He has made A LOT of bonehead piss poor decisions over the years, but he made the right one this time.

waiting for someone to tell me "Thats not the POINT."

No it IS the point. We know Angelos meddles, he shouldn't have had to make that decision, but he made the right one! And got Brian locked up for 3 more years on a very reasonable contract.

He made the right call here, yeah he shouldn't have had to MAKE that call. yes there should be much better communication, but he made the right call.

[SilentJames]

You are 100% wrong.

People don't bash owners when bad trades are made, they bash the GM's because the owners are not SUPPOSED to have anything to do with trades.

Unless Angelos demanded that a trade happen -- like the Bautista/Grimsley deal was rumored to be -- Angelos is usually safe from any backlash from fans after a bad trade.

Flanagan and Duquette are getting bashed a lot around here and deservedly so. They have made some boneheaded mistakes. Perlozzo is saying stupid things and he is getting called out for it on the boards too.

The only time Angelos gets called out is when he sticks his nose in business he's not supposed to be involved in -- like calling off the Roberts/Penn deal -- or saying something totally stupid, like after the protest last year.

And yeah, when looking over the last 10 years, Angelos is the one who gets blasted because he's the one who has been the one constant through it all. And he deserves to be blasted for it because he's done a lot to put us where we are today.

But to say that ANGELOS would get blasted after a bad trade is dumb.

Rumored to be!

Lets ask ourselves how much stock we as a community put in rumors.

how many times did we talked about trades and FO signings like they were a certainty without even bothering to check to see if that person was even available (see: Morgan Ensberg, Casey Kotchman, Kendrich)

I have talked to people that blame Angelos for EVERYTHING. And the general population, the average fan, the fan that makes up a majority of the population WILL and does blame Angelos for everything. There is just no avoiding it.

The buck stops with Angelos at all times. He gets blamed for everything from concession prices to decisions that were made 20 years before he showed up. but you're telling me that letting Brian Roberts go, one of the faces and leaders of the team, wouldn't garner himm any criticsism whatsoever?

We are talking about the same guy right?

If you are going to tell me that the general population of the media and talk radio, et al would suddenly attain perspective and clarity overnight and lay it all at the feet of the GMs.

Well you are living in a fantasy world.

[Mark Carver]

And yet they still were going to make that stupid deal with the Braves. Plus they tried hard to sign Burnett and Pavano both of whom have yet to pitch a 150 innings for their respective teams. No one is infallible. Should he carefully consider their recommendations? Absolutely. But the buck stops with Angelos.

Flanagan/Duquette have been teamed up since 2006.

1) Pavano signed with the Yankees in 2005 before they teamed together. He was also coming off of a 201 (2003 season) and 222 (2004 season) innings.

2) Burnett signed with the Blue Jays in 2006 after coming off a 209 innings, 2005 season. He also had a 204 inning season in 2002 and a 173 inning in 2001.

So both pitchers had pitched the magical 175 innings, in fact Pavano was coming off of back-to-back 200 inning seasons before signing with the Yankees and Burnett was coming off of a 200 inning season before signing with the Blue Jays and had another 200 inning and 173 inning season.

[SilentJames]

I don't think you have any idea what the masses are saying, as much as anyone else really does. We know the masses don't like coming to see a losing team. What would put more fans in the seats? Improving the team or keeping BRob? Argue that trade anyway you like but that's essentially the choice Angelos admitted that he was making. Instead of relying on his baseball guys to improve the team, he chose someone he thinks the fans want to see.

But see, I feel it would NOT have improved the team. As Brian Giles is not a leadoff hitter and that would be a giant hole at the top of our lineup that we don't have anyone to fill. Not to mention the fact that there was no way we were going to retain Giles past this season, leaving an EVEN BIGGER hole for 08.

Who else would play there? We gonna pull off that big blockbuster trade to the Yankees for Cano?

If you want to argue the merits of that trade, be my guest. But you are in no way going to convince me that it was a good deal for the O's to have taken.

[NewMarketSean]

Rumored to be!

Lets ask ourselves how much stock we as a community put in rumors.

how many times did we talked about trades and FO signings like they were a certainty without even bothering to check to see if that person was even available (see: Morgan Ensberg, Casey Kotchman, Kendrich)

I have talked to people that blame Angelos for EVERYTHING. And the general population, the average fan, the fan that makes up a majority of the population WILL and does blame Angelos for everything. There is just no avoiding it.

The buck stops with Angelos at all times. He gets blamed for everything from concession prices to decisions that were made 20 years before he showed up. but you're telling me that letting Brian Roberts go, one of the faces and leaders of the team, wouldn't garner himm any criticsism whatsoever?

We are talking about the same guy right?

If you are going to tell me that the general population of the media and talk radio, et al would suddenly attain perspective and clarity overnight and lay it all at the feet of the GMs.

Well you are living in a fantasy world.

I think you are over reacting.

[rolliefingers]

Nitpicking, but the Pirates haven't had a winning year since I was in college, in 1992.

Thanks. I admittedly was crunching the numbers hastily. But my point still stands.

[Witchy_Chick]

But see, I feel it would NOT have improved the team. As Brian Giles is not a leadoff hitter and that would be a giant hole at the top of our lineup that we don't have anyone to fill. Not to mention the fact that there was no way we were going to retain Giles past this season, leaving an EVEN BIGGER hole for 08.

Who else would play there? We gonna pull off that big blockbuster trade to the Yankees for Cano?

So, who fills our gaping hole at power-hitting 1B? Aubrey Huff?

You have as much baseball expertise as Angelos. I have the same amount, and I say it would've been a good trade. That, and $3.95, will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

At the time, I said Brian and Giles was a virtual wash. Although (at the time), Brian was under club control for one more year than Giles, statistically they are comparable players. And as for Giles leaving after '07, we address that when it comes down the pike. Who knows? Maybe he and LaRoche would've helped us win? Maybe that causes a ripple effect and Giles re-signs here? Maybe we trade for a 2B somewhere else?

So since, IMO, Brian and Marcus are a wash -- we were essentially trading Penn for LaRoche. How many freaking pitching prospects do we have? How many guys do we need to fill out a rotation? And how many do we need to have on the back-burner in case of injury to one of the starting five? At the time, our pitching depth was a strength (RLo was still in the fold, Benson wasn't hurt yet). We failed to capitalize on that strength, acquire a power-hitting 1Bman that we've desperately needed since Palmeiro part I -- because Angelos didn't want to trade a guy that was good "with the public and in hospitals and so on." That, my friends, is not a baseball decision. It's PR, plain and simple. And this team will never win the AL East on PR.

If you want to argue the merits of that trade, be my guest. But you are in no way going to convince me that it was a good deal for the O's to have taken.

Although I just argued the trade, it shouldn't be necessary. It is not your job, nor mine, nor Angelos' to argue the merits of a trade. It's the GMs job -- and Angelos once again is preventing them from doing their jobs.

Witchy

[rolliefingers]

The buck DOES stop at Angelos. The CEO always gets the credit when things go right and the blame when things go wrong. Because whether or not the failures or successes came directly from Angelos, he still effectively hired the people who made the good or bad moves. If we were currently working on 10 straight WINNING seasons, with Angelos personally approving or squashing every move, then he'd deserve the credit. If we'd won 10 straight, with him doing nothing but setting the budget, then he'd deserve credit for intelligent personnel management.

This IS a lose-lose proposition for Angelos, until he wins. Period. If anyone has any problem with that, then you simply don't understand how the top-down management model works. The buck has to stop SOMEWHERE. And Angelos is the ONE thing that the 1993 Orioles and the 2007 Orioles have in common.

You do the math.

[Sports Guy]

PA can talk about BRob and his love for him all he wants but a huge reason he vetoed the deal was Giles' drinking problem(allegedly i should say) and the thought he was on roids.

[frankpembleton]

THIS board. this board isn't the general population. we make up a very small percentage.

I know we like to think that we are the end-all-be-all of discussion around here, but Angelos would get slammed for letting Roberts go by the general population aka the majority.

And if you think i'm wrong then why does Angelos not get a pass for Syd thrift's mistakes? its still Angelos' team and he has final say on all major deals, AS ANY OWNER WOULD.

Is he too involved, yes. No one is trying to argue that he isn't. But he made the right call this time. He has made A LOT of bonehead piss poor decisions over the years, but he made the right one this time.

waiting for someone to tell me "Thats not the POINT."

No it IS the point. We know Angelos meddles, he shouldn't have had to make that decision, but he made the right one! And got Brian locked up for 3 more years on a very reasonable contract.

He made the right call here, yeah he shouldn't have had to MAKE that call. yes there should be much better communication, but he made the right call.

Well, first of all you were directing your point at "this board" when you said:

The problem Angelos faces is this. He is the bad guy no matter what.

say he doesn't nix the deal. You know what the board is saying tomorrow?

"How can ANGELOS let Brian get away for a marginal replacement and a sketchy power hitter?!"

How do we know he even made the right call here? We don't know what the future has in store for these 4 players. I think the men hired to make these baseball decisions determining future performance should be given the benefit of the doubt over someone whose only baseball qualification was that he had enough money to buy a team.

[Mad Mark]

Regardless of your (or my) opinion of the proposed Roberts trade, Angelos doesn't seem to realize that the following is an either/or question:

Micro-manager...or part-timer?

As long as Angelos believes he can be both, this club sails in choppy waters. I really don't care which side of the question he lands on, so long as he realizes that it is an either/or question, and that he can only pick one.