The Bos stickin it to Peter again.

[Mad Mark]

Should Angelos have let Duquette make the trade. YES or NO? Pick one!

RZNJ:

You're echoing the argument I made several pages back (which everyone has ignored, thank you very much!) about Angelos as a micro-managing part-timer.

The problem is not that he's involved in the decision making. My guess is that every owner is...to one extent or another. The problem is that he insists on having his cake and running a law office, too.

So, if I had the opportunity to put a demand to Angelos, it would be: IN OR OUT? And I would not accept "yes" for an answer, which is the one he's giving now.

So, hell yeah, I'm conflicted here. A bad process produced a good result. That rarely happens, so I'm not holding my breath for the next one.

[Sports Guy]

SportsGuy isn't against the trade for any "fan favorite" reasons. He's against it from a baseball standpoint. He's said in this thread that Peter Angelos's interference is a "big problem" for this organization, but because he agrees with the end result in this case, that the interference is okay on this occasion. So he he doesn't like Angelos interfering except in cases where the end result agrees with what he would have done. SportsGuy speak with forked tongue.

So, your feeling is PA should NEVER say anything? He should always allow D and F to do what they want?

[square634]

So, your feeling is PA should NEVER say anything? He should always allow D and F to do what they want?

I don't think that PA should ever say anything to do with roster management. If he doesn't want to let D&F do what they want because he doesn't trust them, then the problem is that he needs to sign a better GM. If he can't find a GM he trusts, then he needs to stop his megalomania.

Granted, I don't think the Roberts trade was a very good one. Angelos still should have stopped meddling, but the real problem may be that the GMs aren't doing a good job.

[Sports Guy]

I don't think that PA should ever say anything to do with roster management. If he doesn't want to let D&F do what they want because he doesn't trust them, then the problem is that he needs to sign a better GM. If he can't find a GM he trusts, then he needs to stop his megalomania.

Granted, I don't think the Roberts trade was a very good one. Angelos still should havestopped meddling, but the real problem may be that the GMs aren't doing a good job.

This is a big problem as well...They just aren't that good.

However, let's say Duquette agrees to trade Tejada to the Cubs for Jacque Jones, Cedeno and Bobby Howry...Are you telling me that you wouldn't want PA saying no to that trade?

[square634]

However, let's say Duquette agrees to trade Tejada to the Cubs for Jacque Jones, Cedeno and Bobby Howry...Are you telling me that you wouldn't want PA saying no to that trade?

I think that is a bad hypothetical, because any GM with anything close to credentials wouldn't accept that proposal. Assuming a competent GM, Angelos should not be deciding if a trade or pick up is a good one. It should be up to the GM to make evaluations, and it's not like Angelos has proven to have good baseball sense. At the most, Angelos should mandate a strategy (i.e. win now or rebuild) and let his GM implement it. At the same time, if Angelos chooses a strategy to win now, then he should let his GM have the resources necessary to do it. The worst possible strategy is the one we have now, which is shooting for mediocrity.

[Sports Guy]

I think that is a bad hypothetical, because any GM with anything close to credentials wouldn't accept that proposal. Assuming a competent GM, Angelos should not be deciding if a trade or pick up is a good one. It should be up to the GM to make evaluations, and it's not like Angelos has proven to have good baseball sense. At the most, Angelos should mandate a strategy (i.e. win now or rebuild) and let his GM implement it. At the same time, if Angelos chooses a strategy to win now, then he should let his GM have the resources necessary to do it. The worst possible strategy is the one we have now, which is shooting for mediocrity.

This is an organizational wide philosophy that is piss poor.

As for the trade, you are probably right but the point remains the same.

The problem with what PA did was the reason he vetoed the trade.

This is why i said RZ is looking at it the wrong way...There is more to look at it than, as Leitch said, just the black and white.

PA has basically made Roberts untouchable and that is terrible.

Had PA come out and said, i vetoed the trade because i have questions about LaRoche long term, whether he can hit lefties and all the questions surrounding Giles, i think everyone would see it from his point of view.

BTW, i can tell you that the Giles stuff had alot to do with him vetoing the deal. Perhaps all the stuff about BRob and being a fan favorite, while true, is just something he is saying to try and make himself look like a hero to the fans??

[square634]

Had PA come out and said, i vetoed the trade because i have questions about LaRoche long term, whether he can hit lefties and all the questions surrounding Giles, i think everyone would see it from his point of view.

I wouldn't. I still think that he shouldn't be making evaluations of players, even if he turns out to be right. More often than not, he has proven to be wrong.

BTW, i can tell you that the Giles stuff had alot to do with him vetoing the deal.

Where did you hear/read this? Just curious. It could be a major reason why he was cut, as well.

[Sports Guy]

Where did you hear/read this? Just curious. It could be a major reason why he was cut, as well.

Let's just say that BB is not the only one with sources.

That being said, the Giles steroid stuff has been a rumor for a while and i believe he got arrested for a DUI recently.

EDIT: It wasn't a DUI..He got into a fight after the Chargers playoff game.

[TonySoprano]

SG, let's go with your source's theory. Did Angelos know this and F&D didn't? If they did know, what does that say about F&D's judgement considering what the team went through with Ponson and his drinking problem?

[Sports Guy]

SG, let's go with your source's theory. Did Angelos know this and F&D didn't? If they did know, what does that say about F&D's judgement considering what the team went through with Ponson and his drinking problem?

This is a good point....It doesn;t say much about their judgement, unless they felt it wasn't that big of a deal(at least in their eyes). I mean, let's face it, i am sure alot fo players like to party.

Hell, Markakis and Loewen live in Canton and apparently are frequent visitors to the bars down there. So, i am not sure the drinking stuff is really a huge deal.

I would think the roid rumors are what bothered PA. Perhaps F and D just didn't worry about it because there is no proof???

[HoodGuy007]

This is a good point....It doesn;t say much about their judgement, unless they felt it wasn't that big of a deal(at least in their eyes). I mean, let's face it, i am sure alot fo players like to party.

Hell, Markakis and Loewen live in Canton and apparently are frequent visitors to the bars down there. So, i am not sure the drinking stuff is really a huge deal.

I would think the roid rumors are what bothered PA. Perhaps F and D just didn't worry about it because there is no proof???

If there is no proof, let's not start accusing players of using steroids in an era where they are tested beyond belief.

Nothing against you SG, I just have a personal dislike for the steroid witch hunt that is ongoing (Cal not getting in unanimously because he 'could have taken steroids')... and I don't think it wise to add fuel to that fire.

[HoodGuy007]

Wow, how off topic are we?

[Tony-OH]

SportsGuy isn't against the trade for any "fan favorite" reasons. He's against it from a baseball standpoint. He's said in this thread that Peter Angelos's interference is a "big problem" for this organization, but because he agrees with the end result in this case, that the interference is okay on this occasion. So he he doesn't like Angelos interfering except in cases where the end result agrees with what he would have done. SportsGuy speak with forked tongue.

I have to agree with RZ here. You can't say that Angelos shouldn't interfere with baseball matters then say he did the right thing when you agree with him. How do we know what Duquette's plan was. Maybe he had a few other deals that would have made the trade look a lot better? We'll never know because PA vetoed the deal.

Whether I like the trade or not, PA should give his baseball people a budget and unless they need to go outside that budget he should let them do their thing. If he doesn't like what they've done, he has every right to fire those people and hire new ones.

You can't have baseball people without the the authority to make moves on the spot. Again, this creates indecisiveness and fosters an environment where a true vision for the future can not be gained because no one knows what will or won't be vetoed by Angelos.

[osfan83]

I think PA should make one last push as owner to bring a ring to Baltimore. Since he beleives he knows more than his GM's he should fire F & D and run the team himself for two years. Lets see if he really knows more about players than most GM's in baseball.

If he took this approach I would be happy, because maybe after 2 years of being GM he would finaly realize he should stay out of the roster development portion of team management.

[Sports Guy]

Someone's looking at it the wrong way. I suggest that it's not me, but you. You would feel better if Peter Angelos overruled Jim Duquette because Peter Angelos felt he knew more about Adam LaRoche? First of all, Peter Angelos probably wouldn't know Andy LaRoche from Adam LaRoche from Dave LaRoche. Second of all, if you believe that Angelos actually knows more than Duquette, then you should never, ever, ever whine again when he overrules the FO, holds up a deal, or vetoes any trade, because you are stating that he is best equipped to make the baseball decisions for this team. Once again. Let's see if you can answer a simple question. Do you think Peter Angelos knows more about baseball talent than Jim Duquette?

BTW, he didn't come out and say he vetoed the trade because of questions regarding LaRoche. You know why? Because that had nothing to do with it. So you are arguing a point that does not exist. You say that we would understand his point of view if he had said this. BUT he didn't say this. Because this wasn't his point of view. And it wasn't his point of view because he knows nothing about these players on other teams, just as he knows nothing about Ervin Santana & Erick Aybar, Roy Oswalt, Morgan Ensberg, Adam Everett, etc., etc., etc. This is the same guy who ordered Denny Bautista traded for anything because he didn't like the kid's performance the one night he was watching the team play. This is the same guy who wouldn't know Wade Townshend from Pete Townsend or Chris Nelson from Ricky Nelson. Give me a freakin break! You're worse than Hood and 33rd St. (No offense guys! lol). They at least think Angelos has the right based on the fan favorite to veto the trade. On some level I can understand that argument, but you are so far out of the loop, that you think Angelos should be veto trades based on baseball acumen (of which he has none), and then "we'd all see his point of view better". Then you'll the same guy who will be whining when Angelos vetoes some Tejada trade down the road. You whine when he interferes and you don't like the result. You like it when he interferes when you like the result. You don't mind that he interfered in the Roberts trade. You just don't like the reason he interfered. You're messed up, man, but I'm going to do my best to straighten you out. You're young. There's still hope.

Sorry but i flat out disagree with you. The problem is that he sticks his nose in the business of the team too often.

And yes, i know i am just selecting something that i agree with but the bottom line is i would rather PA have vetoed that trade than the trade itself being made.

If PA feels this strongly about BRob and basically made him untouchable, D and F should have known this and not even engaged in talks about Roberts. That is their job.

I think this is more of a Duquette issue, in this instance, than an Angelos issue.