The Bos stickin it to Peter again.

[nadecir]

Sorry but i flat out disagree with you. The problem is that he sticks his nose in the business of the team too often.

And yes, i know i am just selecting something that i agree with but the bottom line is i would rather PA have vetoed that trade than the trade itself being made.

If PA feels this strongly about BRob and basically made him untouchable, D and F should have known this and not even engaged in talks about Roberts. That is their job.

I think this is more of a Duquette issue, in this instance, than an Angelos issue.

This post is so conflicted I have a tough time understanding it.

If Angelos sticks his nose in the business of the team too often, that there is no way you can support Angelos vetoing the Roberts trade. You can say I don't agree with Duquette and Flanagan making the trade, but you can't let Angelos overrule his GMs.

Do you actually think that Duquette and Flanagan would have entered into lengthy trade negotiations with the Braves if they knew that Angelos would not let them trade Roberts? Obviously, Duquette and Flanagan thought they could trade Roberts before Angelos nixed it.

It's an Angelos issue all-around. Duquette did nothing wrong other than failing to read Angelos' mind. Angelos' really needs to let his GMs know who can be traded and under what conditions, so they don't waste their time and the time of other teams' GMs. This makes the Orioles seem difficult to do business with, and is the reason some teams won't even talk to us.

[Sports Guy]

Why is this obvious? Maybe they just assumed. Who the hell knows.

It is obvious that PA wouldn't have told them they could trade BRob, based on his recent and past comments.

So, to me, there are only 1 solution here....The stuff PA just said about Roberts, while he may think it is true, had nothing to do with him not trading him. The stuff i mentioned about Giles was the reason he nixed the deal but he isn't going to throw Giles under the bus and, on top of that, he is going to try and make himself look good in the eyes of the fans, so he says this stuff about Roberts.

I just don't think it is as black and white and PA should be allowing his baseball people to do what they want..IN THIS INSTANCE!

[Witchy_Chick]

Are you guys glad we made the playoffs in 1996?

Would you give up those playoffs if you knew it would mean PA would have never interfered??

Yes. Making the playoffs in 1996 was a short-term thing. At the time, none of us knew what was in store for the next 9 years. In hindsight, however, I'd much rather have had a competent GM/field manager combination for those 9 years than an owner who perceives himself to be a competent GM/field manager because -- for one year -- he was "right" and we made the playoffs.

Yea, no, yes

He's not wrong for interfearing when he sees something wrong about to happen.

You own a business, right SG? Do you have any employees?

If you saw them making a mistake, even if it was within the bounds of what they were hired to do, would you let them do it with all the potential risks and problems it poses for your business? Or would you question them, and even overrule them to prevent the mistake?

The problem is that Angelos did not overrule F&D because of "potential risks and problems posed to his business." I realize, as owner, Angelos also has to be concerned with off-field aspects of his business. However, his primary concern should always be winning ballgames and putting a winning team on the field. By his own admission, that was not his concern in vetoing this trade.

[T]hey were looking at it from a standpoint of improving the ballclub," Angelos said of the vetoed trade. "And they may have been totally right. I looked on it as the retention of a player that came through our system and who is of such great value to the club for all the things he does out there with the public and in the hospitals and so on.

However, let's say Duquette agrees to trade Tejada to the Cubs for Jacque Jones, Cedeno and Bobby Howry...Are you telling me that you wouldn't want PA saying no to that trade?

Duq would never agree to that trade, and we all know it. Furthermore, if Angelos vetoed that trade, it would be purely on the basis of Tejada being one of the "fan favorites" and "face of the franchise" players. It would have absolutely nothing to do with the talent (or lack thereof) involved. And that's where the problem lies. Angelos does not have the 40+ years baseball experience that F&D have. At some point, he has to trust his FO personnel. And, 10 years after "interfering" with Pat Gillick, Angelos still does not trust his FO personnel.

Witchy

[Sports Guy]

I don't know if you "can name that tune", but you would be a definite winner on the new show "Change Your Tune". So now, we should believe this rumor you have started about Giles having a drinking problem. We should believe that Duquette & Flanagan who are in touch with other GM's on a daily basis no nothing about this problem but that Peter Angelos who is tucked away in his law offices, not only knows about it, but has decided that this is the reason why he must veto this trade. I'm going to predict your next post.

It's no rumor.

[Sports Guy]

Ok. It's no rumor. Let's go with that. So Duquette & Flanny either didn't know or didn't care, but Peter Angelos did know and did care, AND that's the reason he vetoed the trade. Are you sticking with that? Is that rock solid? You're 100% that's the reason the trade was vetoed?

I would say that is a big reason he vetoed it, yes...It was conveyed to me that this really bothered him.

[AnythingO's]

I would say that is a big reason he vetoed it, yes...It was conveyed to me that this really bothered him.

Are you really saying that this information got to PA through some source other than Mike & Jim? If so, then someone, or some group of individuals, may have a greater influence on PA than his FO. The idea of an unknown closet or back-channel FO might go a long way toward explaining some of PA's decisions, but would scare the bejesus out of me regarding the future of this team.

[Sports Guy]

Are you really saying that this information got to PA through some source other than Mike & Jim? If so' date=' then someone, or some group of individuals, may have a greater influence on PA than his FO. The idea of an unknown closet or back-channel FO might go a long way toward explaining some of PA's decisions, but would scare the bejesus out of me regarding the future of this team.[/quote']

Not at all... But maybe these things didn't bother D and F. Maybe, since there is no proof(steroid stuff i mean) and it is just rumor, D and F didn't really care about it. But to PA, it was a huge deal.

[tennOsfan]

Why is this obvious? Maybe they just assumed. Who the hell knows.

It is obvious that PA wouldn't have told them they could trade BRob, based on his recent and past comments.

So, to me, there are only 1 solution here....The stuff PA just said about Roberts, while he may think it is true, had nothing to do with him not trading him. The stuff i mentioned about Giles was the reason he nixed the deal but he isn't going to throw Giles under the bus and, on top of that, he is going to try and make himself look good in the eyes of the fans, so he says this stuff about Roberts.

I just don't think it is as black and white and PA should be allowing his baseball people to do what they want..IN THIS INSTANCE!

I'm with SG on this, for many reasons.

Sometimes people on this board read too much into comments/actions. Perhaps BRob was tradeable until PA was actually faced with pulling the trigger on a deal, and he then thought otherwise. That's a normal, human thing to do do sometimes -- to change your mind at the moment of decision. I'm unwilling to crucify PA on this matter.

And PA's comments could be only one factor among many on his decision. Sometimes reasons are left unspoken in the media. Better to lift up BRob's ego than to disparage other players.

I don't doubt for a second that I and most people on this board are more familiar with baseball players than PA, but when he's making decisions, I'd say he's getting some decent opinions among those below him who might know. Perhaps they noted that we'd only be getting one year of Giles and LaRoche had a shaky background. Who knows? The bottom line is PA's action was for the better in this instance, but we really don't know what else (beyond PA"s comments) went into that decision.

Certainly I would like to tweak PA's management style, which leaves a lot to be desired, but I think some of you (and Boswell) are putting more meaning into these comments than is necessary.

[Sports Guy]

A big reason? You're still waffling

. Give me a f'ing break. Do you think there is only one reason anything is done in life? Is every decision you make in life only made for one reason per decision? You don't have other factors in mind when deciding things?

All of a sudden you have a source that is the only one who knows the REAL reason the trade didnt' go down.

All of a sudden? I have mentioned this stuff about Giles several times on this board before.

[Sports Guy]

It's a theory you have, that this was a big reason. You even phrased in a previous post "perhaps" this was the reason.

Yea, it is a BIG REASON for it. Perhaps even the #1 reason. But PA's affection for Roberts and his hatred towards trading young pitching probably was part of the decision as well. Again, a decision can be made for several reasons, not just 1.

[Sports Guy]

Was this DUI you keep mentioning in regards to Giles, before or after this trade stuff went down. I imagine it would be pretty embarrassing to Giles. I'm trying to find some information on it. Time frame?

What DUI? I mentioned it one post and corrected it in that same post...He got into a fight(not sure if it was alcohol related or not).

[Moose Milligan]

This thread could be renamed "The RZ sticking it to SG again"

[Sports Guy]

At the end of the day, generally speaking, i don't want PA interfering. However, there are times and there have been times, where he does interefere and i feel it was best for the team.

He shouldn't make a practice out of it but on occasion, it benefits us.

The real problem is communication. He should be telling D and F that you can't trade so and so and things of that nature. He should then give them a budget to as they please and be done with it.

That is the real problem...No one knows what they can and can not do around there.

[Sports Guy]

So there is no evidence of a drinking problem? We're down to the steroid thing?

That's why i have said the drinking stuff is not what you should focus on. That is why i brought up Loewen and Markakis. I mean, i was told it did bother him BUT to what extent, i don't know. The steroid stuff is what i would think really bothered him since the organization has taken so much flack for it because of Raffy, BRob, Tejada, et al...

[Witchy_Chick]

BTW, i can tell you that the Giles stuff had alot to do with him vetoing the deal. Perhaps all the stuff about BRob and being a fan favorite, while true, is just something he is saying to try and make himself look like a hero to the fans??

The stuff i mentioned about Giles was the reason he nixed the deal but he isn't going to throw Giles under the bus and, on top of that, he is going to try and make himself look good in the eyes of the fans, so he says this stuff about Roberts.

I would say that is a big reason he vetoed it, yes...It was conveyed to me that this really bothered him.

Not at all... But maybe these things didn't bother D and F. Maybe, since there is no proof(steroid stuff i mean) and it is just rumor, D and F didn't really care about it. But to PA, it was a huge deal.

That's why i have said the drinking stuff is not what you should focus on. That is why i brought up Loewen and Markakis. I mean, i was told it did bother him BUT to what extent, i don't know. The steroid stuff is what i would think really bothered him since the organization has taken so much flack for it because of Raffy, BRob, Tejada, et al...

So, we're supposed to forget the Giles drinking stuff. Check. But, the Giles steroid rumors "bother" Angelos (to some extent). But, in vetoing a trade for a rumored steroid user (Giles), he kept a player (Roberts) who has also been painted with the steroids brush (by Grimsley?). Not to mention nixing any/all trades involving Tejada -- who has also been "rumored" to be involved with steroids.

I would think if this stuff "bothered" Angelos so much that he is unwilling to acquire a rumored steroid user, he would trade away all of the rumored steroid users on his own team.

But that's just me.

Witchy