Buck Stuff

[Frobby]

There is no way to know if we would have won that game if Britton had been inserted at some point. We weren't going to hold Toronto off the scoreboard forever, and there's no telling when our team was finally going to score a run. We certainly looked feeble for the last six innings of the game, and Liriano had pitched very well against us the last time we saw him and had thrown 1.2 IP without allowing a baserunner.

[Burg]

There is no way to know if we would have won that game if Britton had been inserted at some point. We weren't going to hold Toronto off the scoreboard forever, and there's no telling when our team was finally going to score a run. We certainly looked feeble for the last six innings of the game, and Liriano had pitched very well against us the last time we saw him and had thrown 1.2 IP without allowing a baserunner.

I just can't endorse using the "it might not have mattered anyway" argument to endorse such an incredibly dumb move. There is literally no advanced stat or metric of any kind that supports using Ubaldo over Zach. None. Buck is a great manager who made an unbelievably stupid decision.

[Frobby]

I just can't endorse using the "it might not have mattered anyway" argument to endorse such an incredibly dumb move. There is literally no advanced stat or metric of any kind that supports using Ubaldo over Zach. None. Buck is a great manager who made an unbelievably stupid decision.

I am definitely not endorsing Buck's move. But to state that it cost us the game is not accurate, either.

[Moshagge3]

I would have brought in Britton instead of Buck to at least extend the game. But the game could have went 27 innings and I'm not sure if the O's could have scored another run.

The offense looked terrible, but all it takes is couple of bloops and a wild pitch or error to luck into a run. It would have been nice to have the opportunity, anyway.

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[MrOrange82]

I am definitely not endorsing Buck's move. But to state that it cost us the game is not accurate, either.

And to imply that it didn't cost the O's the game (because "we can't really know") is, at best, a deflection. Going with Britton would have put the O's in a demonstrably better position to survive that inning, which, in turn, would've given them more time to figure out how to take a lead/secure a win later in the game. Buck's decision to go with Ubaldo (and not even have Britton warming in case of emergency) against the heart of Toronto's order actively diminished the O's odds of success in that inning and the game overall.

And what's the point of a manager if he's going to do something that demented in the playoffs?

[Uli2001]

As I have said, I still think leaving a gassed Miley in for the seventh on a high-stakes game with the bullpen rested was worse. It cost the Orioles homefield advantage for the WC game, and this debacle would never have happened (since Britton would have pitched, at home). It could have cost the WC game as well.

The problem with Showalter is not that he makes mistakes. Every manager pushes the wrong buttons sometimes. The problem with him is that he always pushes the same wrong button.

He is a good manager, not great. I am not sure he should be fired, but maybe he could be persuaded to delegate in-game pitcher moves to the pitching coach, or something.

[Moshagge3]

It's thanks to Toronto's "fans" that I would actually rather the Red Sox win the AL this year than the Jays.

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[O's84]

I am definitely not endorsing Buck's move. But to state that it cost us the game is not accurate, either.

Even if we have a crystal ball and know that Britton would have shut them down for 2 innings and that the offense would have scored we still can't blame Buck 100% for the loss. The offense was awful most of the game and the pitching between Tillman and the bullpen kept us from losing the game.

That being said running Ubaldo out there made no sense and is indefensible regardless if it wasn't the sole reason we lost. He's a slow starter and even when he's been good his 1st inning is where he's most likely to be scored upon (someone pulled up a stat that he's awful in the 1st inning). But after you put him in and he gives up 2 well hit singles and there are 1st and 3rd 1 out, that's where the cherry on top is for me. Ubaldo has been pitching up in the zone and they have probably there 2nd best hitter in EE up, a renown power guy. Meanwhile you have Britton who throws close to 80% GB. That's where Buck took it to a whole new level of unacceptability.

In short I thought running Ubaldo out there against the meat of the order before Britton was awful. When you have a guy who put a 0.54 ERA and has allowed 1 ER in the last 57IP in a do or die game and bring an a starter who usually is bad in the 1st inning and needs to get his feet wet. And this was not a time to get his feet wet. Buck then had 1 more chance in the 1st and 3rd against EE and elected to stick with Ubaldo who was getting hit well and up in the zone against when you need a ground ball and Britton is the best RP and GB pitcher in the game. And so while blaming Buck too much for the loss is wrong, not blaming him enough for one of the dumbest moves in postseason is history is also wrong.

[esmd]

Screw the Blue Jays and their fans.

Now that I got that off my chest....Britton or no Britton (and I would've brought him in after Donaldson's base hit), it was only a matter of time. Toronto was consistently putting guys on, and we were doing nothing offensively. Just sitting back trying to hit a HR, not working the count trying to get a walk, chasing bad pitches out of the zone, etc, etc.

[foxfield]

I will first say that personally, I would have started the 11th with Britton. Of course if I am being fair, I was ready for him in the 5th, the 6th and the 7th and...well you get it. Many fans I think were of a similar mind. Buck in my mind deserves credit for having faith in his guys in each of those instances. I believe, everyone of us, including Buck knows that with runners at first and third with one out we had to go to Britton. Just had to.

The O's lack of offense cannot be set aside. This was an offense that would have made Earl Weaver smoke 3 packs a game. All or nothing and last night it was snake eyes. Each inning we held off Toronto in my mind got us another chance to roll the dice and I thought each inning that the O's would finally break through. I will forever believe that Britton in the 11th and 12th would have won it. But I am not gonna bash Buck here on this because as I said above. If they had done it my way, Britton would have been on the bench by the 11th. Literally, one batter too long....that's what happened, and it's painfully obvious in hind site.

Now about using Nolan...:cussing:

[ORIOLE33]

Buck is feeling more heat as the manager of the Orioles than he ever has after last night going into today. We have definitelyhas had very good success under Buck. Since he's arrived, we've seen the playoffs more than not. But eventually, you have to win in the playoffs and not just be in the playoffs.

Buck has gotten a lot of passes for what we were before he got here and what we've become since he's been here and Oriole Nation will always be grateful. But is this the beginning of the end if we don't do anything next year?

[Big Al]

We should give Buck a lifetime contract and let him leave on his own terms.

[ORIOLE33]

We should give Buck a lifetime contract and let him leave on his own terms.

Lets not get Carried away.

[SteveA]

My feeling is, it shouldn't.

BUT... this thing certainly has taken on a life of its own. Memes on Twitter and Facebook. Probably jokes on late night talk shows are next. People who aren't even baseball fans and couldn't have picked Buck out of a lineup before last night now know one thing about him.

Will that matter? I hope not. But man, the first time next year he uses Britton in a tie game, they are going to talk about it on SportsCenter. If a single manager this postseason uses his closer in a tie game on the road and wins, this will be brought up. Every single newspaper and magazine and internet preview of the 2017 O's will mention the way the season ended.

Bill Buckner was a great baseball player. 2715 career hits. Won a batting title and hit over .300 multiple times, over .350 once, in an era when batting average was the defining statistic for a player. A darn fine player. Mention his name now and 99% of baseball fans, even the really knowledgable ones, only think of one thing.

[webbrick2010]

Man a lot of really silly Buck threads today

I'm amazed he got this team to the playoffs

They don't/won't advance because they are not as good as the other teams.

Need some players who can run, hit for average/OBP, and play sound defense.

Finding those players will be difficult, so perhaps Buck will nurse another badly imbalanced team to the playoffs next year, and be a top 5 candidate for Manager of the Year

just like this year