TT: The only question left for Angelos

[atomic]

On 7/17/2017 at 10:17 PM, brianod said:

DD came in and made the promise to build the farm. That is the only way to compete long term within our division.  He has completely failed. I don't want him running anything other then someone else's team. Combined with the fact that he has lost almost every trade he has attempted, it isn't a even debatable imho.

I don't get this argument.  We have had a lot of guys come up and produce and we have a lot of guys on the farm that will be quality players in the future.  It hurts that we can't sign international guys.  I am sure if we could do that we would have an even better farm system. 

[Il BuonO]

6 minutes ago, cimota said:

I don't get this argument.  We have had a lot of guys come up and produce and we have a lot of guys on the farm that will be quality players in the future.  It hurts that we can't sign international guys.  I am sure if we could do that we would have an even better farm system. 

The Orioles farm system was ranked 25th and has a lot of B and C prospects.

[Camden_yardbird]

The only question Angelos needs to answer is: Will he give the next GM/President the ability to make independent baseball decisions?

Here is your budget, go do what you need to do. I have confidence in the system we have set up that the checks and balances we have will curb any stupidity on your part, but that doesn't matter because I hired you because you are the best.

If he can't do that, if he must dictate every trade and organizational strategy to acquiring talent in any way possible, he needs to sell the team.  I'm tired of this BS.  I'm tired of hearing that the GM needs to get permission to seek a trade of a middle reliever.  Seriously?

[SteveA]

18 minutes ago, cimota said:

Brady the guy who caused our pitching coach and bullpen coach to quit.  Brady who got us to sign guys like Trumbo and Chris Davis?  DD is letting everyone know it is Angelos who makes him trade international signing bonuses and he is the one probably telling DD to trade draft picks as well.  DD is also letting everyone know he can't trade certain players because of ownership.  I doubt it will be easy to find anyone competent to replace DD.

DD was out of baseball for 10 years and tried to leave the organization first change he got.  Buck blew the one game playoff last year and would have been fired by other organizations.  As long as Angelos is at the helm it will be hard to get someone to come here as GM who has the credentials to succeed. 

Name the successful major league managers, in HISTORY, who have been fired for just ONE bad (yes, terrible) postseason decision in one game.

[Frobby]

10 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Name the successful major league managers, in HISTORY, who have been fired for just ONE bad (yes, terrible) postseason decision in one game.

Grady Little?

[atomic]

17 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

The Orioles farm system was ranked 25th and has a lot of B and C prospects.

The rankings are meaningless.  What was Mancini rated?  We had guys like Matusz rated in the top 5 prospects.  We have Cisco, Mountcastle and Hays that seem like they will be future MLB starters.     

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, cimota said:

The rankings are meaningless.  What was Mancini rated?  We had guys like Matusz rated in the top 5 prospects.  We have Cisco, Mountcastle and Hays that seem like they will be future MLB starters.     

I would not say the rankings are meaningless.     They're just not always correct.    There's no doubt we've generally had a weak farm system during this century, and even if you'd never seen an expert ranking, any objective look at our farm teams' performance and the number of high performers we have would lead to the conclusion that our farm system is well below average.    That's not to say that there are no good players in our system.   To the contrary, overall I think our system is in better shape right now than in the last couple of years.     But there's no immediate help on the starting pitching side, and that's a huge problem for us.

[OFFNY]

4 hours ago, SteveA said:

 

Name the successful major league managers, in HISTORY, who have been fired for just ONE bad (yes, terrible) postseason decision in one game.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

 

Grady Little?

 

o

 

Casey Stengel.

But I agree with Steve's overall point, though. The number of MLB managers that have gotten fired for one bad decision are few and far between.

 

o

[jtschrei]

On 7/17/2017 at 5:07 PM, wildcard said:

Oh My!!!  Calling for the firing of Buck!   What planet do you live on?

I am betting that Buck stays as long as he wants whether that is under Peter or John.  He turned this franchise around.  He has won more games over the last 5 years than any other AL manager.   And in many cases with less talent.  So lets get this out of the way.  Buck Stays.   Even if the GM changes.  Buck Stays.

So on Dan, its easy to focus on the negatives.  Bad trades.  Bad signing.  But who has done better?   Name him?  Then tell if he is available.   Probably not.   And the amazing thing is that Dan has been successful  working for Peter.  No easy task.  Didn't you get tired on watching other O's GM fail.    Dan has succeeded.   

Do you really blame Dan for Gausman regression?   Do you blame him for Tillman's injury?  I don't.   Bundy is progressing year over year.   Sure Dan has to take the blame for Miley and Jimenez.  But he gets the credit for Chen and Gonzalez.   

Brady hasn't managed anything and he should not be the  next in line for the O's GM spot.   No rookie GMs.  Peter is too hard to work for to do that.

And the idea that Peter is going fire Dan, pay for him 2018 and hire another GM is foriegn territory.  

What is apparently happening now is what should happen.   Britton is on the block.   Hopefully to bring back some starting talent.  Brach and O'Day are also mentioned.   Manny is not and that is because if the O's want to take a run at signing him this off season, Buck has to be signed first.  And Buck is a little busy at the moment.  Smith, Kim Castillo can all be FA in October and if the O's can get anything for them they should.  That appears to be the plan and that is what should be the plan for now.

Kind of wild calling for Buck dismissal considering what he has done for the O's and what he can still do.

I'm so with Wildcard throughout this thread. Cannot believe that folks think it is time for Buck to go. It is fair to criticize both Buck and DD, but we must also appreciate them for bringing winning back to one of the most dysfunctional organizations in all of sports. Make no mistake folks, any manager and GM is working with major handicaps in Angelos. We had GMs TURN DOWN the job before DD. Are you kidding? Does anyone think a guy like Jed Hoyer would ever take the job with Angelos as the owner? I don't. No way. 

I feel like it's a borderline miracle we have gone to the playoffs 3 of the past 5 years. It is hard to encapsulate how meddlesome our owner is. It affects all of the strategy of any GM and leadership team. On top of that, Angelos is unwilling to invest in Latin America.  Oh, and the competition within our division includes 3 of the most loaded franchises in baseball -- NYY, Bos, Tor -- with huge fan bases and incredible and consistent TV revenue. It's design on a dime in the warehouse.

I'm not going to say that DD has done a great job because he's made tons of mistakes and I believe he has sold the future of the organization down the river. BUT, he has succeeded where no one has since 1996. There were some bleak, bleak times before he and Buck and DD came aboard. 

[Tony-OH]

44 minutes ago, jtschrei said:

I'm so with Wildcard throughout this thread. Cannot believe that folks think it is time for Buck to go. It is fair to criticize both Buck and DD, but we must also appreciate them for bringing winning back to one of the most dysfunctional organizations in all of sports. Make no mistake folks, any manager and GM is working with major handicaps in Angelos. We had GMs TURN DOWN the job before DD. Are you kidding? Does anyone think a guy like Jed Hoyer would ever take the job with Angelos as the owner? I don't. No way. 

I feel like it's a borderline miracle we have gone to the playoffs 3 of the past 5 years. It is hard to encapsulate how meddlesome our owner is. It affects all of the strategy of any GM and leadership team. On top of that, Angelos is unwilling to invest in Latin America.  Oh, and the competition within our division includes 3 of the most loaded franchises in baseball -- NYY, Bos, Tor -- with huge fan bases and incredible and consistent TV revenue. It's design on a dime in the warehouse.

I'm not going to say that DD has done a great job because he's made tons of mistakes and I believe he has sold the future of the organization down the river. BUT, he has succeeded where no one has since 1996. There were some bleak, bleak times before he and Buck and DD came aboard. 

The Orioles have $160 million payroll, it's not like the Orioles are Tampa (who are ahead of them in the standings by the way). DD and Buck have brought winning baseball back (with McPhail's core of players) to the Orioles but they have one AL East Pennant, been to the ALCS once (0-4), and will have appeared in one playoff game in the last three years in which Buck made one of the worst managerial mistakes in recent MLB history.

Is it better than the 14 years in which the Orioles were irrelevant? Sure. Was it a nice run that gave Orioles fans a lot of nice moments? Sure. Are they irreplaceable? Nope. No one is. 

Saying that, I've never called for Buck to be fired nor do I think Duquette is 100% of the problem. I think ownership must let his baseball people invest in the Latin American markets and must allow them to make decisions on free agents and such and not resign what ownership perceives as fan favorites. There needs to be a consistent voice and communication throughout the organization to ensure everyone on the same message. 

Still, I'm just not sure I trust Duquette to rebuild. His free agent acquisitions have been horrible outside of Nelson Cruz (which was a one-year deal that Cruz took to get his value back up) and his best trades have involved other teams trying to dump salary (Trumbo) or guys on the fringe of other team's 40-man rosters (Brach). Duquette employs a lot of his buddies from back in the day and I'm not really seeing the payoffs in these evaluations of other players and the organization's own talent.

Then again, Angelos still still has his guys (Anderson) involved in things away from Duquette and Buck for the most part so really it's more of the same just with different pieces. 

[Ohfan67]

16 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

The Orioles have $160 million payroll, it's not like the Orioles are Tampa (who are head of them in the standings by the way). DD and Buck have brought winning baseball back (with McPhail's core of players) to the Orioles but they have one AL East Pennant, been to the ALCS once (0-4), and will have appeared in one playoff game in the last three years in which Buck made one of the worst managerial mistakes in recent MLB history.

Is it better than the 14 years in which the Orioles were irrelevant? Sure. Was it a nice run that gave Orioles fans a lot of nice moments? Sure. Are they irreplaceable? Nope. No one in is. 

Saying that, I've never called for Buck to be fired nor do I think Duquette is 100% of the problem. I think ownership must let his baseball people invest in the Latin American markets and must allow them to make decisions on free agents and such and not resign what ownership perceives as fan favorites. There needs to be a consistent voice and communication throughout the organization to ensure everyone on the same message. 

Still, I'm just not sure I trust Duquette to rebuild. His free agent acquisitions have been horrible outside of Nelson Cruz (which was a one-year deal that Cruz took to get his value back up) and his best trades have involved other teams trying to dump salary (Trumbo) or guys on the fringe of other team's 40-man rosters (Brach). Duquette employs a lot of his buddies from back in the day and I'm not really seeing the payoffs in these evaluations of other players and the organization's own talent.

Then again, Angelos still still has his guys (Anderson) involved in things away from Duquette and Buck for the most part so really it's more of the same just with different pieces. 

Excellent stuff. 

 

A lot of fans want Brady to be more involved. I find his current role where he functions as a DD underling but really only reports to Angelos a really bad reminder of how Angelos' "management" approach hurt the Orioles during the long losing years. 

 

Anyway, the Orioles are spending plenty of money. They've actually spent plenty of money for a long time. The question is always how they choose to invest it. 

[wildcard]

47 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

The Orioles have $160 million payroll, it's not like the Orioles are Tampa (who are ahead of them in the standings by the way). DD and Buck have brought winning baseball back (with McPhail's core of players) to the Orioles but they have one AL East Pennant, been to the ALCS once (0-4), and will have appeared in one playoff game in the last three years in which Buck made one of the worst managerial mistakes in recent MLB history.

Is it better than the 14 years in which the Orioles were irrelevant? Sure. Was it a nice run that gave Orioles fans a lot of nice moments? Sure. Are they irreplaceable? Nope. No one is. 

Saying that, I've never called for Buck to be fired nor do I think Duquette is 100% of the problem. I think ownership must let his baseball people invest in the Latin American markets and must allow them to make decisions on free agents and such and not resign what ownership perceives as fan favorites. There needs to be a consistent voice and communication throughout the organization to ensure everyone on the same message. 

Still, I'm just not sure I trust Duquette to rebuild. His free agent acquisitions have been horrible outside of Nelson Cruz (which was a one-year deal that Cruz took to get his value back up) and his best trades have involved other teams trying to dump salary (Trumbo) or guys on the fringe of other team's 40-man rosters (Brach). Duquette employs a lot of his buddies from back in the day and I'm not really seeing the payoffs in these evaluations of other players and the organization's own talent.

Then again, Angelos still still has his guys (Anderson) involved in things away from Duquette and Buck for the most part so really it's more of the same just with different pieces. 

Who would you replace Dan with and why do you think he would be better than Dan working for Peter?

[TradeAngelos]

1 hour ago, jtschrei said:

I'm so with Wildcard throughout this thread. Cannot believe that folks think it is time for Buck to go. It is fair to criticize both Buck and DD, but we must also appreciate them for bringing winning back to one of the most dysfunctional organizations in all of sports. Make no mistake folks, any manager and GM is working with major handicaps in Angelos. We had GMs TURN DOWN the job before DD. Are you kidding? Does anyone think a guy like Jed Hoyer would ever take the job with Angelos as the owner? I don't. No way. 

I feel like it's a borderline miracle we have gone to the playoffs 3 of the past 5 years. It is hard to encapsulate how meddlesome our owner is. It affects all of the strategy of any GM and leadership team. On top of that, Angelos is unwilling to invest in Latin America.  Oh, and the competition within our division includes 3 of the most loaded franchises in baseball -- NYY, Bos, Tor -- with huge fan bases and incredible and consistent TV revenue. It's design on a dime in the warehouse.

I'm not going to say that DD has done a great job because he's made tons of mistakes and I believe he has sold the future of the organization down the river. BUT, he has succeeded where no one has since 1996. There were some bleak, bleak times before he and Buck and DD came aboard. 

Possibly the best 2 paragraphs describing the last 6 years ever written on this board.

But guess what, 95% of the people here think nothing could be further from the truth, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. 

See the post above this one as Exhibit A. B-Z is coming, just wait.

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, OFFNY said:

 

 

o

 

Casey Stengel.

But I agree with Steve's overall point, though. The number of MLB managers that have gotten fired for one bad decision are few and far between.

 

o

What did Casey Stengel get fired for?

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, jtschrei said:

 

I'm not going to say that DD has done a great job because he's made tons of mistakes and I believe he has sold the future of the organization down the river. BUT, he has succeeded where no one has since 1996. 

Well, I'd say 1997 was pretty good.   

I have mixed feelings about DD, but not about Buck.