Schoop absence from Fanfest

[clapdiddy]

4 minutes ago, interloper said:

Schoop may have had "bad advice", but the Orioles could easily have had some "bad faith" in negotiations. I hypothesized that Schoop's absence was due to the arbitration process, and I was right. His agent didn't want the team profiting off his appearance without a salary locked in for 2018. Now obviously that hurts the fans more than anyone, so probably not a great decision by Schoop.

BUT... it really should not have gotten to this point. Schoop was the team's best offensive player last year, and one of their most durable. He's also pretty good at defense. PAY THE GUY. These bad press moments for the Orioles happen when they dick around too much, and that's what's happened. I blame the organization more than I do Schoop because, frankly, the organization has a track record of being disorganized, unnecessarily picky/cheap, and they clearly have no idea what they're doing this offseason or next year. 

Sorry, but Schoop gets the benefit of the doubt from me. Yeah, he followed some iffy advice from his agent, but that's what agents are paid to do. Maybe he considers a new agent at some point. Until then, the O's probably should make the easiest decision of an offseason filled with indecision, and just pay their star infielder what he's worth.

I do agree that the Orioles have likely caused some of the problems with Schoop.   They are known as a difficult team to deal with...that's not really up for debate.

I don't think the team "profits" from him being at Fanfest.   Seems to me that the only outcome of this is that the fans get the shaft.  He is still under team control, will be paid millions of dollars to play for the Orioles (or someone else) and he should have been at the event, as he's OBLIGATED to be there.  If he had a legitimate excuse, it would have been understood.   Fans understand that family comes first.   To not show because you are upset about the arbitration process is a sign of immaturity, and is really a smack in the face to the fan base.

Most fans won't even remember him not showing up to Fanfest once Spring Training gets into gear.  I just think it was a bad move on his part.

[interloper]

4 minutes ago, clapdiddy said:

I do agree that the Orioles have likely caused some of the problems with Schoop.   They are known as a difficult team to deal with...that's not really up for debate.

I don't think the team "profits" from him being at Fanfest.   Seems to me that the only outcome of this is that the fans get the shaft.  He is still under team control, will be paid millions of dollars to play for the Orioles (or someone else) and he should have been at the event, as he's OBLIGATED to be there.  If he had a legitimate excuse, it would have been understood.   Fans understand that family comes first.   To not show because you are upset about the arbitration process is a sign of immaturity, and is really a smack in the face to the fan base.

Most fans won't even remember him not showing up to Fanfest once Spring Training gets into gear.  I just think it was a bad move on his part.

Yeah, I don't disagree with anything here really. 

[Frobby]

23 hours ago, interloper said:

Schoop may have had "bad advice", but the Orioles could easily have had some "bad faith" in negotiations. I hypothesized that Schoop's absence was due to the arbitration process, and I was right. His agent didn't want the team profiting off his appearance without a salary locked in for 2018. Now obviously that hurts the fans more than anyone, so probably not a great decision by Schoop.

BUT... it really should not have gotten to this point. Schoop was the team's best offensive player last year, and one of their most durable. He's also pretty good at defense. PAY THE GUY. These bad press moments for the Orioles happen when they dick around too much, and that's what's happened. I blame the organization more than I do Schoop because, frankly, the organization has a track record of being disorganized, unnecessarily picky/cheap, and they clearly have no idea what they're doing this offseason or next year. 

Sorry, but Schoop gets the benefit of the doubt from me. Yeah, he followed some iffy advice from his agent, but that's what agents are paid to do. Maybe he considers a new agent at some point. Until then, the O's probably should make the easiest decision of an offseason filled with indecision, and just pay their star infielder what he's worth.

I just don’t agree with this.    First, there have been many players over the years — a couple dozen at least — who hadn’t reached agreement on salary and were headed for an arbitration hearing at the time of Fanfest.    Schoop is the first one ever to use that as an excuse to skip Fanfest.    Contractually, he was required to be there, and it was very poor judgment to skip it.

Second, I refuse to blame the Orioles for the fact that the two sides haven’t reached a deal yet.   As I documented in another thread, only one 2B with 4+ years of service has ever made the $9 mm Schoop is demanding, and that was Robinson Cano, who was going to arbitration for the third time (he had 126 more service days than Schoop and had been a Super-2 two years before).    There’s only two other 2B with 4+ years of services who’ve ever made more than the $7.5 mm the O’s have formally offered Schoop.     We know they’ve offered more in private contract discussions.    So I don’t think it’s correct at all to say the O’s are being cheap.    I’m not blaming Schoop for the state of the negotiations, either.    Sometimes two sides can have an honest disagreement, and that’s why the arbitration process exists.    

[interloper]

18 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I just don’t agree with this.    First, there have been many players over the years — a couple dozen at least — who hadn’t reached agreement on salary and were headed for an arbitration hearing at the time of Fanfest.    Schoop is the first one ever to use that as an excuse to skip Fanfest.    Contractually, he was required to be there, and it was very poor judgment to skip it.

Second, I refuse to blame the Orioles for the fact that the two sides haven’t reached a deal yet.   As I documented in another thread, only one 2B with 4+ years of service has ever made the $9 mm Schoop is demanding, and that was Robinson Cano, who was going to arbitration for the third time (he had 126 more service days than Schoop and had been a Super-2 two years before).    There’s only two other 2B with 4+ years of services who’ve ever made more than the $7.5 mm the O’s have formally offered Schoop.     We know they’ve offered more in private contract discussions.    So I don’t think it’s correct at all to say the O’s are being cheap.    I’m not blaming Schoop for the state of the negotiations, either.    Sometimes two sides can have an honest disagreement, and that’s why the arbitration process exists.    

I did say he followed bad advice, so we agree here.

Secondly, Schoop isn't to blame for anything regarding this negotiation. It's all his agent and the Orioles. 

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, interloper said:

I did say he followed bad advice, so we agree here.

Secondly, Schoop isn't to blame for anything regarding this negotiation. It's all his agent and the Orioles. 

No, Schoop decided not to go.

That is on him.

[interloper]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

No, Schoop decided not to go.

That is on him.

We're arguing semantics here. He followed bad advice and then, yes, he decided not to go. 

My second point was regarding arbitration - I don't blame the player in those situations, the negotiation is largely out of their hands. Clearly the agent has some sway over the kid, which is unfortunate. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, interloper said:

We're arguing semantics here. He followed bad advice and then, yes, he decided not to go. 

My second point was regarding arbitration - I don't blame the player in those situations, the negotiation is largely out of their hands. Clearly the agent has some sway over the kid, which is unfortunate. 

Sounded to me like you were trying to absolve Schoop of any culpability.

As for the actual arbitration, I never blame either side, both are just trying to get the best deal they can.

[interloper]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Sounded to me like you were trying to absolve Schoop of any culpability.

As for the actual arbitration, I never blame either side, both are just trying to get the best deal they can.

I've said in my posts that Schoop made an unfortunate choice, but that choice would not have happened had the Orioles not been a) totally disorganized this entire offseason and b) just paid Schoop either with a player-friendly arb salary as their best player last season OR used any  shred of creativity and bought out his arb years with an extension. Of course none of those things happened.

I'm not absolving Schoop of ANY blame, but I maintain it starts and ends with the Orioles organization and then you add in his snakey agent into it, and here we are.

None of it will matter in a couple weeks.

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Sounded to me like you were trying to absolve Schoop of any culpability.

As for the actual arbitration, I never blame either side, both are just trying to get the best deal they can.

To me, the player ultimately has the final say on whether to accept an offer.    Sure, most players will follow their agent’s advice, but it’s still up to them and I don’t lay poor decisions off on the agent.   That said, I don’t have any problem with Schoop’s position in the contract negotiations.     I still think both sides should try to settle in the middle.    

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, interloper said:

I've said in my posts that Schoop made an unfortunate choice, but that choice would not have happened had the Orioles not been a) totally disorganized this entire offseason and b) just paid Schoop either with a player-friendly arb salary as their best player last season OR used any  shred of creativity and bought out his arb years with an extension. Of course none of those things happened.

I'm not absolving Schoop of ANY blame, but I maintain it starts and ends with the Orioles organization and then you add in his snakey agent into it, and here we are.

None of it will matter in a couple weeks.

We don’t really know (1) what one-year salary the O’s have offered (beyond the formal offer in the arb process), or (2) what if any multi-year deals they’ve proposed.     So it’s hard to blame them without knowing more.   I’m certainly not blaming them for not paying Schoop $9 mm this year.

[interloper]

37 minutes ago, Frobby said:

We don’t really know (1) what one-year salary the O’s have offered (beyond the formal offer in the arb process), or (2) what if any multi-year deals they’ve proposed.     So it’s hard to blame them without knowing more.   I’m certainly not blaming them for not paying Schoop $9 mm this year.

You wouldn't pay Schoop $9 mil this year? I certainly have no problem with that. He's a 30-homer bat with growing on-base capability who plays good defense and plays every single day. 

You're right, we don't know many of the details. But we do have a wealth of knowledge about the Orioles history, so as purely a fan with my own opinions, I choose to give almost any player the benefit of the doubt over the Warehouse. The Orioles have shown a staggering amount of incompetence over the years in regards to player/agent relations and communication in general. 

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, interloper said:

You wouldn't pay Schoop $9 mil this year? I certainly have no problem with that. He's a 30-homer bat with growing on-base capability who plays good defense and plays every single day. 

You're right, we don't know many of the details. But we do have a wealth of knowledge about the Orioles history, so as purely a fan with my own opinions, I choose to give almost any player the benefit of the doubt over the Warehouse. The Orioles have shown a staggering amount of incompetence over the years in regards to player/agent relations and communication in general. 

The question isn't if we would pay Schoop 9M.  The question is why pay him nine when you can pay him seven and a half?

It makes no sense to pay more than you have to.

[TouchemAll]

I don't get wrapped up in players any more they are here today GONE TOMORROW.

Do I think Schoop did the right thing? NOPE.

Do I care NOPE.

Just win baby, I long ago gave up caring what names are on the shirts.

 

 

[Redskins Rick]

9 minutes ago, TouchemAll said:

I don't get wrapped up in players any more they are here today GONE TOMORROW.

Do I think Schoop did the right thing? NOPE.

Do I care NOPE.

Just win baby, I long ago gave up caring what names are on the shirts.

 

 

I love my Oriole Jersey that I found in a store, with no name on the back. Perfect!

 

[jamalshw]

51 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

The question isn't if we would pay Schoop 9M.  The question is why pay him nine when you can pay him seven and a half?

It makes no sense to pay more than you have to.

This is especially true for a player with another year of arbitration left. The arbitration process is based largely off of precedent of other players with the same service time and off what the player made the year prior. If you pay a million or two more this year, that leads to a higher starting point for determining next year's salary. On a larger scale, if a team pays a player more than needed, that then bumps up salaries across the league for comparable players because you have another, higher, data point to use in the argument for determining the next player's salary. While it's understandable to try and save a million or two (to reinvest elsewhere or to even pocket), it's really about much more than a million dollars when you consider the additional, potential future ramifications.