Are we witnessing the death of the Orioles?

[Todd-O]

Not to kick this day off with doom and gloom, but I think baseball in Baltimore is in trouble.  This has everything to do with the Nats and the massive market share that franchise has stolen and is actively solidifying as life-long fans... carved-out of the the wealthy and booming areas of Northern-VA, DC, and Montgomery County.  

It's no mistake that baseball is allowing this to happen.  They know where the money is.  They wanted the region's territory to center around DC, not Baltimore.  

This year was the first year that I began to notice Camden was looking a little ragged around the edges.  The luxury suites are woefully outdated.  The hallways around the club/suite section are knocked up and looking dirty.  At one game I noted one of the food stations in that section of the stadium had filth on the floor and around the food equipment.... the stadium also has signs of wear... and the diamond-vision is looking small and outdated.  Baltimore, in general, is experiencing really tough times. Even the once clean and shiny areas around the stadium are looking ragged – concrete crumbling, weeds, little foot traffic.  It's not a magnet for investment.  It's not a destination for tourism.  It's not a town that suburbanites are heading to – the Baltimore riots and the immediate post-riot drop in stadium attendance at Camden is proof enough.  If you need more proof, just go wander 

You contrast that with what's happening at Nationals Stadium and DC in general.  Billion dollar business are putting offices down in the stadium area.  Condos are going up fast... the restaurant/bar scene is exploding.  And that really extends across the greater DC area, straight into Bethesda and Northern VA.  

While I'm not a fan of the vibe in National's Park, the amenities and state-of-the-art feel is hard to ignore... not to mention the fact that business are packed into their luxury boxes.

 

Peter Angelos saw this coming 100 miles away.  He knew the value of the DC market was invaluable to the Orioles.  

This year we heard the first rumblings of actual destinations for the Orioles. And while it was shot down, I think it's only a matter of time before the team succumbs to the strength and pull of the Nationals, and the fact that our Metro area isn't as large or balanced as places such as New York or LA.  The Nats are big spenders...and they aren't showing any sign of slowing down.  They tripped the luxury tax threshold 3x in four years... this is Yankees/Red Sox/LA territory.

Baltimore is now a perennial small market team.

 

I give the Orioles 8 years before the MLB helps usher their departure to more fertile grounds.  It could be sooner, depending on who ultimately buys the team.  Breaks my heart to think that way, but I'm having a hard time seeing this play out any differently.

[Aglets]

How can I put this in a quick and concise and direct way............?

Hmmmm.

The answer is no.

Hopefully that's clear.

[webbrick2010]

Congrats to Baltimore for being so progressive

Baseball is dying as a sport, the fact that it will die in Baltimore faster than the National average should make us all proud.

I agree that Baltimore will lose it's franchise within the next 15 years

[Going Underground]

13 minutes ago, Todd-O said:

Not to kick this day off with doom and gloom, but I think baseball in Baltimore is in trouble.  This has everything to do with the Nats and the massive market share that franchise has stolen and is actively solidifying as life-long fans... carved-out of the the wealthy and booming areas of Northern-VA, DC, and Montgomery County.  

It's no mistake that baseball is allowing this to happen.  They know where the money is.  They wanted the region's territory to center around DC, not Baltimore.  

This year was the first year that I began to notice Camden was looking a little ragged around the edges.  The luxury suites are woefully outdated.  The hallways around the club/suite section are knocked up and looking dirty.  At one game I noted one of the food stations in that section of the stadium had filth on the floor and around the food equipment.... the stadium also has signs of wear... and the diamond-vision is looking small and outdated.  Baltimore, in general, is experiencing really tough times. Even the once clean and shiny areas around the stadium are looking ragged – concrete crumbling, weeds, little foot traffic.  It's not a magnet for investment.  It's not a destination for tourism.  It's not a town that suburbanites are heading to – the Baltimore riots and the immediate post-riot drop in stadium attendance at Camden is proof enough.  If you need more proof, just go wander 

You contrast that with what's happening at Nationals Stadium and DC in general.  Billion dollar business are putting offices down in the stadium area.  Condos are going up fast... the restaurant/bar scene is exploding.  And that really extends across the greater DC area, straight into Bethesda and Northern VA.  

While I'm not a fan of the vibe in National's Park, the amenities and state-of-the-art feel is hard to ignore... not to mention the fact that business are packed into their luxury boxes.

 

Peter Angelos saw this coming 100 miles away.  He knew the value of the DC market was invaluable to the Orioles.  

This year we heard the first rumblings of actual destinations for the Orioles. And while it was shot down, I think it's only a matter of time before the team succumbs to the strength and pull of the Nationals, and the fact that our Metro area isn't as large or balanced as places such as New York or LA.  The Nats are big spenders...and they aren't showing any sign of slowing down.  They tripped the luxury tax threshold 3x in four years... this is Yankees/Red Sox/LA territory.

Baltimore is now a perennial small market team.

 

I give the Orioles 8 years before the MLB helps usher their departure to more fertile grounds.  It could be sooner, depending on who ultimately buys the team.  Breaks my heart to think that way, but I'm having a hard time seeing this play out any differently.

The Nationals had an attendance drop of 269,823 from last year. Playing one more game then last year. 

The Orioles want the Stadium Authority to upgrade the stadium. All part of the bargaining of the lease deal. They could keep it better but ownership likes more money in their pocket. Just like the media PR  that the Orioles can't sign Villar for one year at around $10 or so million dollars. Can't sign him because of a rebuild . It is only for one year and the Orioles made plenty of extra revenue by already cutting salary from last year. 

In Major League Baseball, 48% of local revenues are subject to revenue sharing and are distributed equally among all 30 teams, with each team receiving 3.3% of the total sum generated. As a result, in 2018, each team received $118 million from this pot. Teams also receive a share of national revenues, which were estimated to be $91 million per team, also in 2018.

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Revenue_sharing

[Going Underground]

As for the statement about building around Baltimore and the stadium area. As i have said before ,the city is expanding rapidly in some areas and dying in others. 

Port Covington is one of the biggest HQ and revitalization projects on the East Coast. On the other side of the stadium near the casino, they are building a Top Golf  and now two concert halls.,the Paramount and Hammerjacks reopening. Also Canton.Harbor East, Woodberry and other areas keep getting new condos,apartments and restaurants.

 

https://www.southbmore.com/2019/10/11/plans-revealed-for-3750-seat-the-paramount-baltimore-music-venue-across-from-mt-bank-stadium/

 

https://baltimorefishbowl.com/stories/50-million-3750-seat-concert-venue-proposed-for-south-baltimore/

 

https://pc.city/development/

 

https://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bs-bz-liberty-harbor-east-20191014-q56ifdkwjff77p3erpgazbzmaa-story.html

 

[Luke-OH]

No

[Redskins Rick]

Nats fan base is not all that rabid normally, IMO.

They are riding the wave of emotions of being in the playoffs and now World Series, they had their fair share of doom and gloomers, back in May, when they were under .500 and playing poorly in 4th place.

Baltimore supported their team through 14 years of extremely sad and troubling times.

The team is not losing money and while Angelos family isnt as wealthy as some other MLB owners, I think they will provide enough to allow this team to be a contender. 

[ChrisP]

14 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

Port Covington is one of the biggest HQ and revitalization projects on the East Coast.

 

If folks have not looked into this project and the impact on the city, you're missing out. Baltimore is on the rebound. 

https://www.constructiondive.com/news/mega-billions-a-look-at-some-of-the-biggest-us-construction-projects-under/564093/

[Going Underground]

3 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

Nats fan base is not all that rabid normally, IMO.

They are riding the wave of emotions of being in the playoffs and now World Series, they had their fair share of doom and gloomers, back in May, when they were under .500 and playing poorly in 4th place.

Baltimore supported their team through 14 years of extremely sad and troubling times.

The team is not losing money and while Angelos family isnt as wealthy as some other MLB owners, I think they will provide enough to allow this team to be a contender. 

If the team lost money on the revenue that was shared with all teams that was  $209 million  in 2018 plus whatever was left over from the RSN that was not  revenue shared,plus  attendance and merchandise and food sales not shared then that must be some accounting trick.. Based on their payroll in 2019.

[Moose Milligan]

No.  We aren't.

GTFO.  Three or four years ago, OPACY was packed and rabid with fans when this team was good.  Yeah, we're in the dark days now but there's some reason for hope up ahead.  We all here know it because we follow every small detail here.  The guy who goes to a game or two a year and still thinks Adam Jones shouldn't have been let go doesn't get it.  And that's ok.  

I can't believe just because the Nats are having some success that people are afraid about the future of baseball in Baltimore.  It's true that some fans changed allegiances but you can thank Peter for that.  That's all his doing, IMO.  He didn't do a single thing to make some people want to stay Orioles fans despite a newer team moving closer.

There are still quite a few Orioles fans in Northern VA, it's not all lost.  On the other hand I can't really blame St. Peter for doing his damndest to try and block the Expos from making the move.  But you combat that with hiring the right people so they can put a good team on the field and getting the hell out of their way which he failed to do time and time again.  

Winning cures everything.  Simple as that.

[Redskins Rick]

Here is something to sink your teeth in.

National Attendance while good, is still down from their past 3 previous years.

2019	Washington Nationals	27,899
2018	Washington Nationals	31,230
2017	Washington Nationals	31,173
2016	Washington Nationals	30,641

 

According to BBREF

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/WSN/attend.shtml

[Going Underground]

1 minute ago, Redskins Rick said:

Here is something to sink your teeth in.

National Attendance while good, is still down from their past 3 previous years.

2019	Washington Nationals	27,899
2018	Washington Nationals	31,230
2017	Washington Nationals	31,173
2016	Washington Nationals	30,641

 

According to BBREF

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/WSN/attend.shtml

The Nationals had an attendance drop of 269,823 from last year. Playing one more game then last year. 

[Redskins Rick]

4 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

The Nationals had an attendance drop of 269,823 from last year. Playing one more game then last year. 

In spite of being a contender for most of the season.

MLB has some issues with attendance going downward.

But, that does not mean baseball has one foot in the grave and needs to be administered last rites.

[DrungoHazewood]

The Orioles have revenues of about $250M and a player payroll of, what, $70M or so?  They pay a fairly trivial rent on their beautiful and completely taxpayer-funded stadium.  Their coaching staff makes a total of a few $million a year.  Within the last few years they've drawn over 2M fans, and in the last decade they have several playoff appearances and 90-win seasons.  The city has 130-plus-year history of supporting professional baseball, with great-great grandparents of today's season ticket holders having been to games in the city. Most of Maryland is still more Oriole fans than Nats because everyone grew up rooting for Cal and Brooks and Palmer and Eddie.

Yea, you're right, there's no way that can be a fiscally viable franchise.  Might as well send them off to a more established baseball market like Nashville or Austin.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, webbrick2010 said:

Congrats to Baltimore for being so progressive

Baseball is dying as a sport, the fact that it will die in Baltimore faster than the National average should make us all proud.

I agree that Baltimore will lose it's franchise within the next 15 years

I'm guessing you're the type of person who sees a 10% drop in year-to-year car sales and extrapolates that out to 10 years from now when zero cars will be sold in America and all the automotive related companies will be bankrupt.