Owners submit new economic plan to union : UPDATED

[SteveA]

8 hours ago, Redskins Rick said:

Melewski's first paragraph looks like he has been hanging out with @DrungoHazewood

It was called Decoration Day back then.

[MurphDogg]

If the union were to agree to a cut in salaries beyond prorating, it should be up to the union to decide how to divide the money. This "offer" is a cynical, disingenuous insult to the concept of collective bargaining and seeks only to divide union members against one another.

The owners need to put on their big boy pants, pay the players their prorated salaries, accept that they may lose money for the first time in 25 years and taken comfort in the fact that they make money literally every other year and that franchise values have doubled in the last 15 years.

You can't be a socialist with the losses and a capitalist with the gains. If they want to renegotiate the entire CBA to cut players in on profits and franchise values increases and MLBAM then fine, but as a one year offer to move $700+ million from labor to management because management caught a bad break is garbage.

[spiritof66]

31 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

If the union were to agree to a cut in salaries beyond prorating, it should be up to the union to decide how to divide the money. This "offer" is a cynical, disingenuous insult to the concept of collective bargaining and seeks only to divide union members against one another.

The owners need to put on their big boy pants, pay the players their prorated salaries, accept that they may lose money for the first time in 25 years and taken comfort in the fact that they make money literally every other year and that franchise values have doubled in the last 15 years.

You can't be a socialist with the losses and a capitalist with the gains. If they want to renegotiate the entire CBA to cut players in on profits and franchise values increases and MLBAM then fine, but as a one year offer to move $700+ million from labor to management because management caught a bad break is garbage.

I'm not sure what difference the capitalist/socialist point makes, but I don't see this as a form of socialism. The owners aren't going to the government and saying, " Without selling tickets, we can't survive. If the country wants major league baseball, we'll need a loan or a payment from the government of $5 billion dollars."

I think the owners are acting very much in the spirit of capitalism. Capitalists can decide whether to do business or shut down to avoid or minimize losses (including shutting down temporarily in the hope that conditions will improve). That's what I see as the core of the issue. The owners have said, in effect, "If we have to pay prorated salaries under the CBA but the states are going to limit our ability to do business in the usual way, we'll just skip the season rather than suffer losses by paying those prorated salaries (or any other amount offered by the union). Implicit in that is the willingness of MLB and the teams to pay every contractor, supplier etc. to which it has contractual obligations in the absence of games. That's something that capitalists are free to do. When the capitalist has a monopoly it can be a real problem. But I digress.

Capitalists also are free to renegotiate their contract obligations if, due to chances in economic or market circumstances, they believe those obligations are onerous. That's what capitalists do, or try to do, in difficult times: use whatever leverage they have in an effort to get better terms and make more money, or lose less money. Again, when there's no real competition, that gives capitalists a great deal of power (which can be counterbalanced by a strong union). 

So call the owners and their approach to 2020 baseball greedy, or piggish, or extortionate, or opportunistic, or disrespectful to the players and/or the fans, or lacking in integrity, or short-sighted, or indifferent to the future of the game. But it's capitalism all the way. 

[scOtt]

10 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

For the moment it seems to be good.  I was having issues with a connector I'd reused when I upgraded to an all-metal hotend. 

I need to do that.  I wonder if I could build Union Park in Tinkercad?  Yes, I should do this now that I have accurate dimensions.

I still have the .zip file (?) for Tinkercad saved. STILL haven't opened it up and used it. Ran AutoCAD for... 14 years. Miss it a lot. Wish I still had a copy.

[scOtt]

2 hours ago, atomic said:

That seems fair. If you are cutting players pro-rated salary that are making the league minimum they won't be getting much.  If players don't want to play fair enough.  But they will get a lot less money not playing.  And I am sure free agent contracts will be mostly for next to nothing this off season.  I don't know why the need for public announcements from the players.  Tell the league what you want changed not the public.  I can't get them paid.  

 

Both sides negotiating thru the Press. Thru freakin Twitter! NEVER a good thing.

[scOtt]

2 hours ago, SteveA said:

It was called Decoration Day back then.

Sorry. Just reminded me of this...

 

[scOtt]

14 hours ago, Redskins Rick said:

Gates only 2nd richest man in the world, and cant afford it.

But FIRST in the hearts of all us haters!

[scOtt]

2 minutes ago, scOtt said:

But FIRST in the hearts of all us haters!

Freakin no talent, low life THIEF, con man, lucky ass freakin [richard!]

[atomic]

2 hours ago, MurphDogg said:

If the union were to agree to a cut in salaries beyond prorating, it should be up to the union to decide how to divide the money. This "offer" is a cynical, disingenuous insult to the concept of collective bargaining and seeks only to divide union members against one another.

The owners need to put on their big boy pants, pay the players their prorated salaries, accept that they may lose money for the first time in 25 years and taken comfort in the fact that they make money literally every other year and that franchise values have doubled in the last 15 years.

You can't be a socialist with the losses and a capitalist with the gains. If they want to renegotiate the entire CBA to cut players in on profits and franchise values increases and MLBAM then fine, but as a one year offer to move $700+ million from labor to management because management caught a bad break is garbage.

Past results don’t mean squat in the future: I actually think it would be good for the season to be cancelled.  The Orioles have no talent so what’s the point. Maybe cancelling the season will lead to a salary cap and a salary floor.  Which would be great for us fans.

[scOtt]

4 hours ago, MurphDogg said:

If the union were to agree to a cut in salaries beyond prorating, it should be up to the union to decide how to divide the money. This "offer" is a cynical, disingenuous insult to the concept of collective bargaining and seeks only to divide union members against one another.

The owners need to put on their big boy pants, pay the players their prorated salaries, accept that they may lose money for the first time in 25 years and taken comfort in the fact that they make money literally every other year and that franchise values have doubled in the last 15 years.

You can't be a socialist with the losses and a capitalist with the gains. If they want to renegotiate the entire CBA to cut players in on profits and franchise values increases and MLBAM then fine, but as a one year offer to move $700+ million from labor to management because management caught a bad break is garbage.

GD right!!! Well said Murph!

[DrungoHazewood]

8 hours ago, scOtt said:

I still have the .zip file (?) for Tinkercad saved. STILL haven't opened it up and used it. Ran AutoCAD for... 14 years. Miss it a lot. Wish I still had a copy.

I only know Tinkercad as a simple CAD program you can run in your browser.  I don't have one on my local machine.  Works well enough for what I've been doing, and my level of drawing skills.

[weams]

 

[DrungoHazewood]

8 hours ago, atomic said:

Past results don’t mean squat in the future: I actually think it would be good for the season to be cancelled.  The Orioles have no talent so what’s the point. Maybe cancelling the season will lead to a salary cap and a salary floor.  Which would be great for us fans.

I think you might be a nihilist.  Many times over the past few months or even years you've talked about how even minor sports like women's soccer are poised to pass baseball in popularity, how nobody really likes baseball anymore.  Of course that's an exaggeration, but an ugly labor dispute that cancels the season in the midst of a pandemic probably wouldn't do any good for the sport.  You don't want to watch the Orioles but the rest of us fans do.

Also, there is a salary floor right now, set at about $13.75M per team.  I'm guessing what you really mean is a much higher cap to force teams like the Orioles or the Tigers to spend a lot more on 32-year-old halfway decent free agents to bump the win totals up to 73 instead of 55.  Because everyone loved the 2007 Orioles.

I'd actually be okay with a floor if they did away with the draft and included all salaries and bonuses, including minor leaguers, in the calculations.  Doing away with the draft and having a tiered/capped bonus structure would have a bigger impact on competitiveness than forcing teams to spend $100M MLB payroll every year.  The NFL has a cap and a floor and they've had teams go 0-16 and 16-0.

[weams]

 

 

[Can_of_corn]

21 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I think you might be a nihilist.  Many times over the past few months or even years you've talked about how even minor sports like women's soccer are poised to pass baseball in popularity, how nobody really likes baseball anymore.  Of course that's an exaggeration, but an ugly labor dispute that cancels the season in the midst of a pandemic probably wouldn't do any good for the sport.  You don't want to watch the Orioles but the rest of us fans do.

Also, there is a salary floor right now, set at about $13.75M per team.  I'm guessing what you really mean is a much higher cap to force teams like the Orioles or the Tigers to spend a lot more on 32-year-old halfway decent free agents to bump the win totals up to 73 instead of 55.  Because everyone loved the 2007 Orioles.

I'd actually be okay with a floor if they did away with the draft and included all salaries and bonuses, including minor leaguers, in the calculations.  Doing away with the draft and having a tiered/capped bonus structure would have a bigger impact on competitiveness than forcing teams to spend $100M MLB payroll every year.  The NFL has a cap and a floor and they've had teams go 0-16 and 16-0.

I think a lot of fans want a cap because they think it will improve their team's chances of winning. 

I am not at all sure that is the case.