Why is the book closed on Mountcastle at 3rd?

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Aglets said:

Because it challenges my preconceived notions of course.  AND I WILL NOT STAND FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE HIRED AND PAID TO EVALUATE MLB PLAYERS TELLING ME THAT WHAT I SEE FROM MY COUCH IS A LIE.

I get having a healthy skepticism that the folks in charge don't always have everything right.  But this is a case where people are making pronouncements based on nothing more than tiny bit of casual observation and wondering why that doesn't trump the opinions of professional scouts and coaches who've watched and worked with the player for hundreds of hours.  If you have the data, bring it.  But nobody here has anything of substance suggesting Mountcastle is a passable major league third baseman.

[Sports Guy]

Third base is one of the premium positions in the league right now.  If they could get Mountcastle’s bat over there and if he could play a passable defense, they definitely would have him there.

[Ruzious]

32 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Mountcastle does not have the arm strength or throwing motion to adequately play third base at any professional level. It's not "lore" or hearsay, but the absolute truth confirmed by scouting, the naked eye of the casual observer, and I'm sure trackmaster. His defense would be so poor there that it would offset his bat and take away the value he brings to the club. 

By the way, Ruiz is a literally an average defensive third baseman (0 OAA and 0% success added). His bat is what's below average (.286 WOBA in 812 career PAs and .298 last year) and the reason why he's a place holder until Westburg or Henderson arrives.

 

Thanks for clearing that up on Ruiz.  While he did make some glaring errors, I thought he played a solid defensive 3rd base.  

It's absurd that anyone still believes the O's didn't give Mountcastle every opportunity to play 3rd base.  He could be Bill Murray in Groundhog Day practicing 3rd base 10 hours a day year after year and still not become proficient at it.  He'd have a better chance at coming up with some nice ice sculptures.    

[DrungoHazewood]

If any team knows bad third base-ery, it's the team that let Chris Davis and Mark Reynolds field .886, .848, .897, and .850 at the hot corner.  All told that's over 1400 innings (about a full season) of butchery at third.

For reference, there were players in the 1880s who played on primitive, pock-marked fields with no gloves who fielded .900 at third.

[Sanfran327]

27 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Pretty sure he's referring to infield arms.  Mountcastle's arm in the outfield is clearly superior to someone like Damon, even with the small sample size we've seen. 

Perhaps, but I can't resist making fun of Damon's limp noodle of an arm when there's an opening. 

I actually liked him as a player, but his arm was just comically bad.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Sanfran327 said:

Perhaps, but I can't resist making fun of Damon's limp noodle of an arm when there's an opening. 

I actually liked him as a player, but his arm was just comically bad.

Damon's arm was a lot better than mine throwing left handed.  I'd have a hard time throwing a ball out of a closet left handed.

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

If any team knows bad third base-ery, it's the team that let Chris Davis and Mark Reynolds field .886, .848, .897, and .850 at the hot corner.  All told that's over 1400 innings (about a full season) of butchery at third.

For reference, there were players in the 1880s who played on primitive, pock-marked fields with no gloves who fielded .900 at third.

I'd actually be interested in seeing if a player with an accurate but exceeding weak infield arm would ever get called for an error when a hitter beats the throw to first.

My guess is they wouldn't.

[Tony-OH]

14 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

If any team knows bad third base-ery, it's the team that let Chris Davis and Mark Reynolds field .886, .848, .897, and .850 at the hot corner.  All told that's over 1400 innings (about a full season) of butchery at third.

For reference, there were players in the 1880s who played on primitive, pock-marked fields with no gloves who fielded .900 at third.

Saying all that, third base-ery should be term that is used more often! lol

[DrungoHazewood]

8 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'd actually be interested in seeing if a player with an accurate but exceeding weak infield arm would ever get called for an error when a hitter beats the throw to first.

My guess is they wouldn't.

You might want to go over some game film from my time as a shortstop in the Pax River intermural softball league.  I fielded at least .700, and few, if any, of the errors were on cleanly fielded balls that the runner beat to first.  All scored infield hits.

I remember one of my finest moments at short was a quick two or three hopper to my left, fielded it, twisted, then tossed the ball on a ballistic trajectory to first on a run, beat the runner by an eyelash.  Both the runner and my throw were in slow motion all the way to the thrilling conclusion.

[VaBird1]

13 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

We have a huge hole at 3B in the organization. We can afford to let Mountcastle take his lumps for a few years. His he really that bad?  Ruiz and Bannon aren’t exactly world beaters from a short term. 

Longenhagen an McDaniel actually use him as the example of someone who shouldn't play infield.  His arm is rated by McDaniel as a 45 on the 20-80 scale, but his arm utility is a 20.  Arm utility is the assessment of whether or not your arm can make the plays needed in the infield.  They hold him up as the perfect example of someone whose arm is passable in the outfield, but can't get the job done making all of the unique throws required in the infield. 

[Absltgreek]

13 hours ago, linedrive said:

Mountcastle has the worst throwing arm I've ever seen in a Major League (or Minor League) player. My throwing arm is pretty bad, but I could make a stronger throw from third to first (well, maybe 10 years ago). I watched him play 3B at AA Bowie, and every throw weak, almost like he was lobbing it over there. Personally, I'd like to see him groomed as a permanent DH, but I understand he might have some value in the OF or 1B.

Johnny Damon says hi.

[BohKnowsBmore]

57 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

If any team knows bad third base-ery, it's the team that let Chris Davis and Mark Reynolds field .886, .848, .897, and .850 at the hot corner.  All told that's over 1400 innings (about a full season) of butchery at third.

For reference, there were players in the 1880s who played on primitive, pock-marked fields with no gloves who fielded .900 at third.

Ironically the team that's had Brooks Robinson, Manny Machado, and later-career Cal Ripken playing the hot corner.

And I was shocked to find that Wilson Betemit actually eked out a .923 at 3B in 2012.

[DrungoHazewood]

26 minutes ago, BohKnowsBmore said:

Ironically the team that's had Brooks Robinson, Manny Machado, and later-career Cal Ripken playing the hot corner.

And I was shocked to find that Wilson Betemit actually eked out a .923 at 3B in 2012.

According to DRS the 2012 Orioles, prior to Manny being called up in early August, were -14 at third.  So about -20 pro-rated to a full season.  In 2011 they were at -24.

In 2013, mostly Manny, the team was +25 at third.  So a swing of over four wins just on third base defense.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, VaBird1 said:

Longenhagen an McDaniel actually use him as the example of someone who shouldn't play infield.  His arm is rated by McDaniel as a 45 on the 20-80 scale, but his arm utility is a 20.  Arm utility is the assessment of whether or not your arm can make the plays needed in the infield.  They hold him up as the perfect example of someone whose arm is passable in the outfield, but can't get the job done making all of the unique throws required in the infield. 

I would agree with that and it's because of how he needs to generate the throw power. When he can wind up, he can generate slightly below average arm strength, but the infield typically requires a quicker arm action to generate arm strength. He just never had the arm action that would allow for him to get to them arm strength which limits him to 1st base on the dirt and even then his throws will be a problem at times.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'd actually be interested in seeing if a player with an accurate but exceeding weak infield arm would ever get called for an error when a hitter beats the throw to first.

My guess is they wouldn't.

Error Definition. A fielder is given an error if, in the judgment of the official scorer, he fails to convert an out on a play that an average fielder should have made. Fielders can also be given errors if they make a poor play that allows one or more runners to advance on the bases.

So by definition, a player could be given an error by the scorer if an exceedingly bad throw was made but unless it slipped out of his hand or was inaccurate, I doubt a fielder has ever been given an error because a batter beat it out do to lack of arm strength. Mostly because it would be so subjective I doubt any scorer would be willing to say an accurate throw that was beaten out was only due to a lack of average arm strength.