The Catching Situation

[LTO's]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

My complaint?  About the catching?

I want either Sisco or Severino replaced with AR.

That's my complaint.

And yet only one player from that draft class has debuted so far (because of injury) and is barely being played because of how overmatched he looks. Seems like an unreasonable complaint. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, LTO's said:

And yet only one player from that draft class has debuted so far (because of injury) and is barely being played because of how overmatched he looks. Seems like an unreasonable complaint. 

If Adley had been a HS player or hadn't been 1-1 or if the O's were trying to be make the playoff this season or if the O's didn't have a glaring need at catcher I'd agree with you.

Since Adley was a college player that was chosen 1-1 in an organization that isn't trying to win and that has a glaring need at catcher I don't agree.

[Philip]

14 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Silly fans not being able to understand where the team is right now despite the GM saying it.

Exactly what does that mean? What does “not trying to win games” mean?

Whatever it does mean, I think what it does not mean is sabotaging the team, putting less than your best on the field, and using less than your best alignment. The only thing that it does mean is that you’re not gonna waste prospects or money making foolish short term trades. It means you’re not going to spend the off-season signing meaningful free agents, and you’re not going to pay a lot of money and arbitration to guys who are limited. I agree with all of that and so do you.

It does NOT mean playing guys out of position, or not using the best possible lineup from game to game.

We aren’t hitting. None of our guys is hitting. So field the best possible defense and hope some guys get hot. McKenna doesn’t hit, but he can field. MC can’t field but he can hit, so you put McK in the field and MC at DH and have the best alignment. It’s really that simple.

Sisco can’t hit and he can’t defend. He’s not part of the future, even as a back up. So replace him with, for example, Ciuffo, who ALSO can’t hit, but who CAN defend.

We don’t have great options but we DO have options and we should use them even if “we’re not trying to win.”

Otherwise there’s no point to following the team at all.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Philip

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Philip said:

Exactly what does that mean? What does “not trying to win games” mean?

Whatever it does mean, I think what it does not mean is sabotaging the team, putting less than your best on the field, and using less than your best alignment. The only thing that it does mean is that you’re not gonna waste prospects or money making foolish short term trades. It means you’re not going to spend the off-season signing meaningful free agents, and you’re not going to pay a lot of money and arbitration to guys who are limited. I agree with all of that and so do you.

It does NOT mean playing guys out of position, or not using the best possible lineup from game to game.

We aren’t hitting. None of our guys is hitting. So field the best possible defense and hope some guys get hot. McKenna doesn’t hit, but he can field. MC can’t field but he can hit, so you put McK in the field and MC at DH and have the best alignment. It’s really that simple.

Sisco can’t hit and he can’t defend. He’s not part of the future, even as a back up. So replace him with, for example, Ciuffo, who ALSO can’t hit, but who CAN defend.

We don’t have great options but we DO have options and we should use them even if “we’re not trying to win.”

Otherwise there’s no point to following the team at all.

Elias has said, publicly and without question, that winning games is not the priority right now.

I don't how you can take that quote, see what he has done and see how the team is and not come to the conclusion that he Is telling you how he thinks and where he wants the direction of the team to go right now.

He would much rather end this year with a top 5 pick than pick 13th. 

[OriolesMagic83]

22 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

My complaint?  About the catching?

I want either Sisco or Severino replaced with AR.

That's my complaint.

I would like to see AR get some experience above single A and have success as a hitter above rookie ball.  Not sure what the rush is to burn a year of control of the O's number #1 prospect on a team that will probably lose close to 100 games.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

1 minute ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

I would like to see AR get some experience above single A and have success as a hitter above rookie ball.  Not sure what the rush is to burn a year of control of the O's number #1 prospect on a team that will probably lose close to 100 games.

With the way rosters are managed now at best we can hope Adley gets a September call up this year. But realistically it will be late May 2022 when Adley joins the 26 man roster full time to maximize his service time with the Orioles. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

I would like to see AR get some experience above single A and have success as a hitter above rookie ball.  Not sure what the rush is to burn a year of control of the O's number #1 prospect on a team that will probably lose close to 100 games.

Because I'm against gaming a player's service time and would rather teams extend them if they want them under control longer.

I'm hopeful this gets changed in the next CBA even if it ends up biting teams like that Orioles that participate in the practice.

[Sports Guy]

Just now, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

With the way rosters are managed now at best we can hope Adley gets a September call up this year. But realistically it will be late May 2022 when Adley joins the 26 man roster full time to maximize his service time with the Orioles. 

Mid to late April is when you gain the extra year.  No need to wait until May.

Zero reason he shouldn't be up this year unless he is hurt or playing really awful baseball.

[Philip]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Elias has said, publicly and without question, that winning games is not the priority right now.

I don't how you can take that quote, see what he has done and see how the team is and not come to the conclusion that he Is telling you how he thinks and where he wants the direction of the team to go right now.

He would much rather end this year with a top 5 pick than pick 13th. 

OK, let me say it again. There is a difference between not trying to win, and trying to lose. Of course Mike wants to win games: he would rather win 75 games then 65 games if doing so will not hurt the longtime plan. If you think Mike actually intended to say, “I do not want to win games. I want to win 65 instead of 75 games.“ Then I will respectfully call you a fool. 
what he does mean is that he is not prioritizing winning games over the future. Nobody disagrees with that but it seems that some people are unclear on that. Sisco is not part of the future, neither is Severino. It will not damage the future to replace either or both of them with good defensive catchers. It will not damage the future to put in Mountcastle at DH. It will not damage the future to use the guys we have to the best of their abilities.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

Mid to late April is when you gain the extra year.  No need to wait until May.

Zero reason he shouldn't be up this year unless he is hurt or playing really awful baseball.

Ok, I couldn't remember the timing on gaining the extra year of team control. 

[LTO's]

12 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

In a SSS last year, these were our 2 primary catchers and we saw an improvement in the staff, including the young arms.  If they are so bad and such a detriment to things, how could that have happened?  Was it only because it was 60 games?  Why have we seen improvement from some of the young arms if these guys aren't helping?  Why is it that Sisco caught so many of the young pitchers we see now in the majors and minors, who have made strides, and those pitchers have developed well if he is such a detriment?

So despite decades of not only conventional wisdom but also sabermetrics, your contention is that catcher defense has to be overrated because a few (not even all) of our pitchers saw some improvements over a 10-20ish game sample size lol? That's just exceptionally irrational. As I said before, thank god you have no input on the decision making of this ball club.

I don't think anyone is saying that good defensive catchers can completely transform a pitcher's production. You are arguing against a strawman. However, catchers literally handle every single pitch of a ball game. They are tasked with making sure every baserunner in a ball game doesn't advance. Framing very much IS valued by the best teams in the game despite the inaccuracies others have posted in here. Strikeouts are continually rising. Balls are being put in play less and less. Take a guess who is making those put outs. 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Philip said:

OK, let me say it again. There is a difference between not trying to win, and trying to lose. Of course Mike wants to win games: he would rather win 75 games then 65 games if doing so will not hurt the longtime plan. If you think Mike actually intended to say, “I do not want to win games. I want to win 65 instead of 75 games.“ Then I will respectfully call you a fool. 
what he does mean is that he is not prioritizing winning games over the future. Nobody disagrees with that but it seems that some people are unclear on that. Sisco is not part of the future, neither is Severino. It will not damage the future to replace either or both of them with good defensive catchers. It will not damage the future to put in Mountcastle at DH. It will not damage the future to use the guys we have to the best of their abilities.

Nah...I think he would rather have the higher pick and lose the games.

Now, if they won games because they bring up a slew of young players, that may be different but he is going to trade guys and things like that and not care one bit about the win column.  He wants the best inventory he can get and in his eyes, that happens by trading anyone they can that they don't feel is a long term piece and drafting high.  He has made this pretty clear.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Ok, I couldn't remember the timing on gaining the extra year of team control. 

You have three cutoffs.

1. Time to get an extra season of team control
2. Time to avoid Super Two status
3. Time to keep a player's rookie status intact.

I'd never heard of anyone caring about the third but Elias has done it twice now so my tin foil hat theory is he cares.

I expect AR to get called up this year but still have his rookie status intact for 2022.

[LTO's]

19 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Since Adley was a college player that was chosen 1-1 in an organization that isn't trying to win and that has a glaring need at catcher I don't agree.

So despite the entire league acknowledging that a player drafted in 2019 needs to play more than half a season of minor league ball before being called up to the majors, the Orioles cannot possibly also believe that. Must be service time manipulation. 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

You have three cutoffs.

1. Time to get an extra season of team control
2. Time to avoid Super Two status
3. Time to keep a player's rookie status intact.

I'd never heard of anyone caring about the third but Elias has done it twice now so my tin foil hat theory is he cares.

I expect AR to get called up this year but still have his rookie status intact for 2022.

I agree this is the most likely scenario for AR this year barring unforeseen circumstances. Even if the Orioles are a surprise wildcard contender come July/August, I don't see any chance of a Manny Machado situation where AR gets called up to join the O's.