Grayson Rodriguez 2021

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, glenn__davis said:

Yeah, would have preferred him to do well of course, but...I kinda like that he ended on a stinker.  

But what if his confidence is crushed for all time?  It's too risky to put these guys in a situation in which they might fail.  Now he has a playoff loss haunting him in the back of his mind, he might not ever recover.

[RZNJ]

5 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

But what if his confidence is crushed for all time?  It's too risky to put these guys in a situation in which they might fail.  Now he has a playoff loss haunting him in the back of his mind, he might not ever recover.

 

I think I am missing the analogy or point you are trying to make.   You are taking a playoff beating by a pitcher who has dominated that league all year long and are comparing it to what?

Is that a fair comparison to a player who is promoted from A+ and takes a pounding in every start at the ML level?

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

 

I think I am missing the analogy or point you are trying to make.   You are taking a playoff beating by a pitcher who has dominated that league all year long and are comparing it to what?

Is that a fair comparison to a player who is promoted from A+ and takes a pounding in every start at the ML level?

It's pretty simple.

I think folks worrying about a professional athlete not being able to mentally cope with not dominating is an unfounded concern.

You don't reach the highest levels of any field without being able to overcome adversity.

 

[RZNJ]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

It's pretty simple.

I think folks worrying about a professional athlete not being able to mentally cope with not dominating is an unfounded concern.

You don't reach the highest levels of any field without being able to overcome adversity.

 

I don't think the argument is about athletes not dominating.   It's about placing them in a situation where there is little chance of success and constant failure.   Yes, you can argue that the great ones will overcome that failure but it's impossible to know which ones might have been great successes if not put into that situation.    If your argument is that no athlete who could be good, could possibly be hurt by being put in that situation, I'd have to disagree.   Of course, there's no way to prove that one way or the other.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I don't think the argument is about athletes not dominating.   It's about placing them in a situation where there is little chance of success and constant failure.   Yes, you can argue that the great ones will overcome that failure but it's impossible to know which ones might have been great successes if not put into that situation.    If your argument is that no athlete who could be good, could possibly be hurt by being put in that situation, I'd have to disagree.   Of course, there's no way to prove that one way or the other.

I'd never use an absolute term like no athlete.  I'm sure they do exist somewhere, I just don't think they are at all the norm and shouldn't be considered as the baseline when making decisions.

[RZNJ]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

I'd never use an absolute term like no athlete.  I'm sure they do exist somewhere, I just don't think they are at all the norm and shouldn't be considered as the baseline when making decisions.

What is the norm?

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

What is the norm?

The norm would be able to handle the adversity.

Just like normal people can handle not being the best at something and still continuing to do it.

.

[RZNJ]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

The norm would be able to handle the adversity.

Just like normal people can handle not being the best at something and still continuing to do it.

.

There is adversity and being put into a position you aren't ready for.   I think there are capable people who would quit a job they weren't properly trained for and faced continual failure.     Those same people might be quite good at the job if they were give the time to train properly.   That's your analogy.   It's a little different in baseball.    

[7Mo]

5 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

The norm would be able to handle the adversity.

Just like normal people can handle not being the best at something and still continuing to do it.

.

Are you familiar with the history of Billy Beane as a player before he wound up in the Oakland organization?

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, 7Mo said:

Are you familiar with the history of Billy Beane as a player before he wound up in the Oakland organization?

Yep.

He was a high draft pick that wasn't as talented as the team that drafted him thought he was.

If he couldn't handle pressure do you think he'd be able to succeed as a GM in Oakland?

[7Mo]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yep.

He was a high draft pick that wasn't as talented as the team that drafted him thought he was.

If he couldn't handle pressure do you think he'd be able to succeed as a GM in Oakland?

But see, that's the difference. He was given time....made to take the time... to grow as a GM. He dealt with huge expectations because of his draft status and couldn't deal with it emotionally.

I understand that you disagree. And I understand that I won't convince you. But developing confidence is a real thing. And Billy Beane WAS just as physically talented as they thought he was. 

I shouldn't have jumped in. You have your beliefs and I have mine. Have a nice night.

[NCRaven]

7Mo, sounds like you think Beane failed as a player because he lost confidence in his ability to hit.  Sounds like Corn thinks Beane failed because he couldn’t hit.  I think I’m with Corn on this one.

[Sports Guy]

I think if a player fails because they didn’t succeed at first, that they are likely too mentally weak to succeed anyway, even if they were developed in the traditional way.

These guys have always been the best players on their team, in their leagues and in their states.  They are all used to success.  
 

They are all talented.  Some are obviously more talented than others but pro sports is littered with the best in the world, even if “they suck”.  
 

Take a guy like Jorge Lopez.  He’s probably one of the best 500 pitchers in the world right now.  We look at him and think he sucks but what he can do with a baseball in his hand is astounding and something basically no one on the planet can do.

So, one of the major differences between the have and have nots is what is going on between their ears.  They used to talk about that all the time with a guy like Tiger Woods.  What pro golfers can do with the golf ball is amazing.  The way they shape it, the different shots they can hit, etc…but it’s that mental fortitude that separates the best from the best.  Tiger’s focus and mental strength separating him from everyone else.

A guy like Gunnar Henderson, for example, has always been a great baseball player.  He doesn’t get to this point in his life and his career without being able to mentally overcome obstacles.  If he all of a sudden becomes someone who is mentally weak because the Os push him to the majors “early”, why would I think he wouldn’t do that anyway?

Jared Kellenic has 300 at bats this year and has an OpS just over 600.  He’s been bad.  Will he recover?  We will see but if he doesn’t, it won’t be because the Mariners “rushed” him, it will be because he wasn’t as good as advertised and likely not mentally strong enough to overcome adversity.  I don’t see why we should think that would have been a lot better had the Mariners given him 400 more MiL At bats.

[RZNJ]

Pretty simple. Players who succeed are mentally strong and players who fail are mentally weak.  Got it.  I knew it had to be black and white.  Jared Kelenic succeeded in AAA. No one would suggest that he was rushed.  

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Pretty simple. Players who succeed are mentally strong and players who fail are mentally weak.  Got it.  I knew it had to be black and white.  Jared Kelenic succeeded in AAA. No one would suggest that he was rushed.  

No, there are also guys who just aren’t good enough and of course you have guys who have injury issues that just zap their abilities.  We may be seeing that with Diaz.

But what goes on between the ears is a major reason why an athlete fails or succeeds.  They are all great at what they do.  Even getting to that level is an amazing accomplishment.

The concept of rushing is a myth outside of extreme cases….like elevating a HS pitcher to the majors immediately or something like that.  Putting a recent DR signing in AA.  Those types of things but they don’t happen.