Amazing Video on pitchers cheating in MLB

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

 

21 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

What did the baseball execs think would happen?  It doesn’t take a genius to figure out where things would end up.

Players are going to keep pushing the limit and gaming the system when MLB refuses to enforce the rules or looks the other way. Especially when 8 and 9 figure contracts are involved and awarded to the best of the best players. 

I'm not surprised by this at all and anyone who remembers the steroid era shouldn't be either. 

[Ruzious]

I'm not sure why people are trying to rationalize this away.  It's a real problem.  Spin rates have never increased like this before, and it appears to be because of the new substances.  It's a legit reaction by MLB to try to stop it.  And if teams are really supplying this stuff to their players, there should be severe penalties.  

[Can_of_corn]

2 hours ago, Ruzious said:

 Spin rates have never increased like this before, and it appears to be because of the new substances.  

?

How many years do we have spin rate information for?

How long have these "new" substances been available?

How long have pitching staffs been trying to increase spin rate?

[Ruzious]

13 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

?

How many years do we have spin rate information for?

How long have these "new" substances been available?

How long have pitching staffs been trying to increase spin rate?

1.  You tell me.

2.  The article talked about that.  The most effective stuff appears to be new this year.  There are likely organizations spending a lot of resources trying to improve it as you think of more smarmy comments and questions..  

3.  You tell me.  

[Can_of_corn]

3 hours ago, Ruzious said:

1.  You tell me.

2.  The article talked about that.  The most effective stuff appears to be new this year.  There are likely organizations spending a lot of resources trying to improve it as you think of more smarmy comments and questions..  

3.  You tell me.  

You say " Spin rates have never increased like this before" and then you want me to provide data supporting your statement?  That isn't how it works.

You made a frankly unprovable assertion. 

We have very limited access to historic spin rates.   How much did spin increase when pitchers were first allowed to throw overhand?  According to you, less than the Age of Spider Tack.

Is this an issue that needs to be addressed?  Sure.  I wanted to address it years ago.

What I'm saying is that MLB knew about this and ignored it a very long time. 

Just like the steroids and sign stealing events they let this crap sit and simmer instead of just taking care of it.

[Jagwar]

In the 90s the hitters demonstrably cheated, but they were hitting HRs and filling seats and capturing eyes (and ad revenue $$) on TV.

The pitchers are now the cheaters, but MLB is quickly responding because the pitchers are striking out hitters in emptier ballparks and who wants to watch a dearth of HRs on TV?

Sorry pitchers... chicks dig the longball. 

 

[Sports Guy]

I have always found it amusing that we can talk Gaylord Perry cheating and we laugh about it.  That we can talk about Mays, Aaron and others taking greenies and act like it’s no big deal.

But when the modern player does it, it’s some travesty to the sport.

[DrungoHazewood]

9 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

What did the baseball execs think would happen?  It doesn’t take a genius to figure out where things would end up.

I don't know that it's obvious or inevitable that pitchers would go from rosin to sunscreen to Spider Tack to industrial epoxy and that each step continues to increase spin rates.  It's not like everyone had reams of data on how added grip of various types changes spin rates.  For all we know there's a line where it's so sticky/tacky that it makes it impossible to throw effective pitches, and in 2016 or 2018 I don't know that anyone outside of the pitching community had any idea where that line was.  

Continuing Frobby's analogy, if everyone is going 59 in a 55 in 2016 do you have a massive crackdown by the highway cops because it doesn't take a genius to know by 2021 everyone will be going 110?

[DrungoHazewood]

22 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I have always found it amusing that we can talk Gaylord Perry cheating and we laugh about it.  That we can talk about Mays, Aaron and others taking greenies and act like it’s no big deal.

But when the modern player does it, it’s some travesty to the sport.

There's always been a huge double standard in baseball driven by the sport's nostalgia cult.  By definition anything Willie, Mickey, The Duke, Ted, Aaron did was okay, and anything these kids like Canseco and Clemens did was a travesty.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I don't know that it's obvious or inevitable that pitchers would go from rosin to sunscreen to Spider Tack to industrial epoxy and that each step continues to increase spin rates.  It's not like everyone had reams of data on how added grip of various types changes spin rates.  For all we know there's a line where it's so sticky/tacky that it makes it impossible to throw effective pitches, and in 2016 or 2018 I don't know that anyone outside of the pitching community had any idea where that line was.  

Continuing Frobby's analogy, if everyone is going 59 in a 55 in 2016 do you have a massive crackdown by the highway cops because it doesn't take a genius to know by 2021 everyone will be going 110?

I’m talking knowing they are using spider tack.  It’s not hard to figure out what is going to happen if you allow the pitchers to use it.  They only want to use it for one reason and that reason isn’t going to favor hitters.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

You say " Spin rates have never increased like this before" and then you want me to provide data supporting your statement?  That isn't how it works.

You made a frankly unprovable assertion. 

We have very limited access to historic spin rates.   How much did spin increase when pitchers were first allowed to throw overhand?  According to you, less than the Age of Spider Tack.

Is this an issue that needs to be addressed?  Sure.  I wanted to address it years ago.

What I'm saying is that MLB knew about this and ignored it a very long time. 

Just like the steroids and sign stealing events they let this crap sit and simmer instead of just taking care of it.

It's easy to judge the sport in retrospect.  Obviously they should have cracked down on the 'roids in '88 and the sticky stuff in 2013.  Except that in the early years it's not well know, it's not universally done, the effectiveness isn't clear, everyone is trying to hide it and deny it's widespread.  It's unrealistic to think the powers-that-be will have a massive crackdown in the early stages of something like this when nobody is sure of the scope or the impact.

Again, like Frobby said, are they really supposed to assume that people going a few mph over the speed limit will inevitably lead to some kind of Mad Max Autobahn?

[Can_of_corn]

12 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I don't know that it's obvious or inevitable that pitchers would go from rosin to sunscreen to Spider Tack to industrial epoxy and that each step continues to increase spin rates.  It's not like everyone had reams of data on how added grip of various types changes spin rates.  For all we know there's a line where it's so sticky/tacky that it makes it impossible to throw effective pitches, and in 2016 or 2018 I don't know that anyone outside of the pitching community had any idea where that line was.  

Continuing Frobby's analogy, if everyone is going 59 in a 55 in 2016 do you have a massive crackdown by the highway cops because it doesn't take a genius to know by 2021 everyone will be going 110?

Except that is exactly what happened with steroids and sign stealing.

I think it is fair to say that ballplayers have a history of pushing an unfair advantage as hard as they can get away with.

[drjohnnyfeva]

4 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I don't know that it's obvious or inevitable that pitchers would go from rosin to sunscreen to Spider Tack to industrial epoxy and that each step continues to increase spin rates.  It's not like everyone had reams of data on how added grip of various types changes spin rates.  For all we know there's a line where it's so sticky/tacky that it makes it impossible to throw effective pitches, and in 2016 or 2018 I don't know that anyone outside of the pitching community had any idea where that line was.  

Continuing Frobby's analogy, if everyone is going 59 in a 55 in 2016 do you have a massive crackdown by the highway cops because it doesn't take a genius to know by 2021 everyone will be going 110?

Regardless of sport, players are ALWAYS seeking competitive advantage whether it's within the rules or not.  This is nothing new to MLB.  Their feigned indignation is almost comical.  The whole HR/steroid era... took them probably a decade to do anything about that.  I still think it wasn't steroids but Sammy Sosa's corked bat that was the death knell of that era, but the point remains, MLB did little about something they had to have known about for a long time until they had to.  Here's an article from the other day...

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/the-monday-9-mlb-is-already-behind-on-pitchers-using-sticky-substances-205030244.html

[Ruzious]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

You say " Spin rates have never increased like this before" and then you want me to provide data supporting your statement?  That isn't how it works.

You made a frankly unprovable assertion. 

We have very limited access to historic spin rates.   How much did spin increase when pitchers were first allowed to throw overhand?  According to you, less than the Age of Spider Tack.

Is this an issue that needs to be addressed?  Sure.  I wanted to address it years ago.

What I'm saying is that MLB knew about this and ignored it a very long time. 

Just like the steroids and sign stealing events they let this crap sit and simmer instead of just taking care of it.

How about doing the posters here a favor and not act like this is a courtroom with you as the prosecuting attorney.  Then maybe we can begin to have a conversation.  Until/if you change your posting style, I'm not responding to you.  

[DrungoHazewood]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Except that is exactly what happened with steroids and sign stealing.

I think it is fair to say that ballplayers have a history of pushing an unfair advantage as hard as they can get away with.

Pitchers scuffing and using slippery stuff for spitball-like pitches has always been (apparently) a fairly small percentage of pitchers.  I don't think anyone believes that ever ratcheted up to epidemic levels.  

I don't think bat corking ever reached saturation levels or anything close. Possibly because it doesn't work...

I don't think it's inevitable that some level of small-scale cheating will eventually go to chaotic insane levels.  A bit of sunscreen isn't much different from rosin.  A bit of pine tar isn't too different from sunscreen.  But then you look up in 2021 and the ball sticks to the outfield wall for 20 minutes.