I'm already over this offseason.

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, owknows said:

THe sequence of this discussion is as follows:

Wildcard: I think a big part of the young pitchers failure is that they were rushed IMO.   Most if not all hardly pitched at AAA and when they did they were not very good. 

SportsGuy: Lol...now the starters were rushed. Gotta love it.

owknows: They were pretty obviously not ready for the majors

SportsGuy: Or they just weren't that good. They certainly pitched enough in the minors. And were the proper ages at the level the pitched at.

owknows:

Innings at AAA before seeing the majors:

Kremer 19

Zimmerman 38

Akin 112

Lowther 0

_______________________________________________

This exchange is very characteristic of the dynamic on this forum. Wildcard says something very obviously true. That the core of young starters had very little MLB experience between them.

Sports Guy (who seethes whenever Wildcard says anything at all) feels compelled to not only disagree, but but pretty smarmy about it.

Owknows posts the actual data in support of Wildcard's original assertion. That the 4 starters who had a rough go of the majors, didn't have a whole lot of AAA experience.

He goes on to suggest that the complete lack of pitching time in 2020 probably didn't help matters.

CanoCorn jumps into the fray in an attempt to support SG and suggests that AAA is just a useless charade.

SG goes on an extended hand-waving and genuflecting binge, all to deflect from the fact that Wildcard was right (which SG truly can't abide)

It plays out like the movie Groudhog's day... time and time again.

 

No, WC said they were rushed.  That’s where I took issue with his post. Try to keep up.

I am assuming you understand the difference between rushed and not throwing a lot of innings in AAA.  I never said they threw a lot of innings at that level.

[owknows]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

No, WC said they were rushed.  That’s where I took issue with his post. Try to keep up.

Wildcard's ACTUAL AND DIRECT QUOTE is the one I provided above.

And your response to that quote are your actual words in response.

[owknows]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

No, WC said they were rushed.  That’s where I took issue with his post. Try to keep up.

I am assuming you understand the difference between rushed and not throwing a lot of innings in AAA.  I never said they threw a lot of innings at that level.

It would be less embarrassing for you at some point I think, to simply say hmmm... maybe Wildcard was right. Maybe they were up a little early.

They might not even be as awful as they looked.

But we both know you can't. Because it was Wildcard. And you got smarmy with him. And now you have to twist yourself in knots to make him wrong... when he was obviously right.

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, owknows said:

Wildcard's ACTUAL AND DIRECT QUOTE is the one I provided above.

And your response to that quote are your actual words in response.

Yes and in that ACTUaL and DIRECT quote, your boy said they were rushed and, as I said, THAT is the part I took issue with. Did you just skip over that part or do you just feel like trolling?

Do you understand now or do you need it further explained to you?

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, owknows said:

It would be less embarrassing for you at some point I think, to simply say hmmm... maybe Wildcard was right. Maybe they were up a little early.

They might not even be as awful as they looked.

But we both know you can't. Because it was Wildcard. And you got smarmy with him. And now you have to twist yourself in knots to make him wrong... when he was obviously right.

Except he’s not right.  They weren’t rushed.  They didn’t have a lot of AAA innings.  That’s true.  But that doesn’t mean they were rushed.  Those are 2 different things.

[owknows]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yes and in that ACTUaL and DIRECT quote, your boy said they were rushed and, as I said, THAT is the part I took issue with. Did you just skip over that part or do you just feel like trolling?

Do you understand now or do you need it further explained to you?

I represented the events faithfully. With actual quotes.

You were wrong.

But not only were you wrong.

You were wrong.. and smug about it.

Which is not unusual for you.

Most people let you get away with it because you do it a lot.

I usually give it a pass too.

But when you come off particularly obnoxiously... I'm gonna rub your nose in the carpet, and tell you about the mess you made.

You don't want that to happen?

Try being a little less obnoxious.

Edited November 28, 2021 by owknows

[Can_of_corn]

17 minutes ago, owknows said:

THe sequence of this discussion is as follows:

Wildcard: I think a big part of the young pitchers failure is that they were rushed IMO.   Most if not all hardly pitched at AAA and when they did they were not very good. 

SportsGuy: Lol...now the starters were rushed. Gotta love it.

owknows: They were pretty obviously not ready for the majors

SportsGuy: Or they just weren't that good. They certainly pitched enough in the minors. And were the proper ages at the level the pitched at.

owknows:

Innings at AAA before seeing the majors:

Kremer 19

Zimmerman 38

Akin 112

Lowther 0

_______________________________________________

This exchange is very characteristic of the dynamic on this forum. Wildcard says something very obviously true. That the core of young starters had very little MLB experience between them.

Sports Guy (who seethes whenever Wildcard says anything at all) feels compelled to not only disagree, but be pretty smarmy about it.

Owknows posts the actual data in support of Wildcard's original assertion. That the 4 starters who had a rough go of the majors, didn't have a whole lot of AAA experience.

He goes on to suggest that the complete lack of pitching time in 2020 probably didn't help matters.

CanoCorn jumps into the fray in an attempt to support SG and suggests that AAA is just a useless charade.

SG goes on an extended hand-waving and genuflecting binge, all to deflect from the fact that Wildcard was right (which SG truly can't abide)

It plays out like the movie Groudhog's day... time and time again.

 

 I wasn't attempting to support Sportsguy.

I was attacking the idea that spending time in AAA will somehow metamorphose a marginal talent into a viable ML pitcher.  I don't think much evidence exists to support the idea.

[Sports Guy]

Just now, owknows said:

I represented the events faithfully. With actual quotes.

You were wrong.

But not only were you wrong.

You were wrong.. and smug about it.

Which is not unusual for you.

Most people let you get away with it because you do it a lot.

I usually give it a pass too.

But when you come off particularly obnoxiously... I'm gonna rub your nose in the carpet, and tell you about the mess you made.

You don't want that to happen?

Try being a little less obnoxious.

Lol…you aren’t even addressing the idea that I’m talking about his words saying he was rushed.  But keep it up troll.  You must not be smart enough to understand the difference between being rushed and a lack of AAA experience, which I guess isn’t too surprising. 

[owknows]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

 I wasn't attempting to support Sportsguy.

I was attacking the idea that spending time in AAA will somehow metamorphose a marginal talent into a viable ML pitcher.  I don't think much evidence exists to support the idea.

I don't think anyone suggested that AAA time will make a mediocre pitcher good.

I do however think it quite reasonable to think that AAA baseball exists for a reason... and that a pitcher who does not experience AAA time will be less prepared for the majors than one who does.

Base talent notwithstanding.

As such... I considered your point to be obfuscation rather than meritorious.

[owknows]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

 But keep it up troll. 

Troll: trole Noun.

Some expressing an unwillingness to tolerate or overlook SG's obnoxious behavior.

 

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, owknows said:

I don't think anyone suggested that AAA time will make a mediocre pitcher good.

I do however think it quite reasonable to think that AAA baseball exists for a reason... and that a pitcher who does not experience AAA time will be less prepared for the majors than one who does.

Base talent notwithstanding.

As such... I considered your point to be obfuscation rather than meritorious.

It's where you hold your ML depth.

[owknows]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

It's where you hold your ML depth.

And surely you're capable of understanding the implications of your own statement...

That for a pitcher... time spent in AAA, is an opportunity to be challenged by bats that are in your words "major league depth".

A chance to be sharpened by that final level of competition before the show...

A chance to face only those players who have also run the gauntlet.. also been tested.. also achieved "almost ready".

But you know all of this... you're belaboring a point you don't even believe...

Edited November 28, 2021 by owknows

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, owknows said:

And surely you're capable of understanding the implications of your own statement...

That for a pitcher... time spent in AAA, is an opportunity to be challenged by bats that are in your words "major league depth".

A chance to be sharpened by that final level of competition before the show...

A chance to face only those players who have also run the gauntlet.. also been tested.. also achieved "almost ready".

But you know all of this... you're belaboring a point you don't even believe...

Not sure where you got that from?

A ML team needs a reserve of players to pull from, mostly "replacement" level bodies to weather injuries and other roster shortfalls.  AAA is, to a large extent, the holding area for those players.

Guys get called up and sent right back down, their routines are routinely ...get it... disrupted.  They get added to the 40 man, pitch in a game, and get kicked back off the 40 man later that night.  AAA isn't about development to the extent that other leagues are.

A lot of guys are in AAA in order to soak up innings in the ML when the team needs them.

[owknows]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Not sure where you got that from?

A ML team needs a reserve of players to pull from, mostly "replacement" level bodies to weather injuries and other roster shortfalls.  AAA is, to a large extent, the holding area for those players.

Guys get called up and sent right back down, their routines are routinely ...get it... disrupted.  They get added to the 40 man, pitch in a game, and get kicked back off the 40 man later that night.  AAA isn't about development to the extent that other leagues are.

A lot of guys are in AAA in order to soak up innings in the ML when the team needs them.

So it is your contention that AAA has no developmental value whatsoever...?

And that all players would do just as well going to the majors straight from AA?

If not... I don't see this entire line of discussion as anything but sophistry

[wildcard]

owknows,  Everyone on the board already knows what you just explained.  They have seen it a hundred times.  And its not just done to me.  Most posters just stay out of fray now.    I refuse to argue a point the way you are doing any more.  I have been on the OH for twenty years.  SG and Corn have been on the board for for a good part of that time, except for when SG was banned for while.   

Its Tony's board.  He sets the rules.  He allows what you wants to allow.   I enjoy posting on the OH.  It the best place to talk O's baseball.  But I don't enjoy arguing with posters who just like to argue for arguing sake. When it turns to that,  I have better things to do.