Laurila on Beltre, Nettles and Brooks

[Moose Milligan]

17 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Objectively speaking, Schmidt probably deserves the overall nod.

His dWar is only 18.4. Brooks laps him with 39.4. 

For some reason I thought Schmidt would be higher.  Certainly not as high as Brooks but higher.  

[Tony-OH]

8 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm a wOBA guy.

I love wOBA now, but it doesn't help to compare across eras.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

His dWar is only 18.4. Brooks laps him with 39.4. 

For some reason I thought Schmidt would be higher.  Certainly not as high as Brooks but higher.  

He had 10 gold gloves.  What else are you supposed to go off of?  Not as if fans outside of Philly got to see him play that often.

How many Phillies games do you think were televised in Baltimore in 1986?

[Moose Milligan]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

 

How many Phillies games do you think were televised in Baltimore in 1986?

Enough to piss you off, I bet.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

15 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

His dWar is only 18.4. Brooks laps him with 39.4. 

For some reason I thought Schmidt would be higher.  Certainly not as high as Brooks but higher.  

Brooks along with Cal, Belanger and Ozzie Smith are unicorns when it comes to career defensive value.

If Belanger was just an average hitter, I think he’s easily in the HOF when combined with his defensive play at SS. 
 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_def_career.shtml

 

 

[Frobby]

21 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm a wOBA guy.

 

13 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I love wOBA now, but it doesn't help to compare across eras.

How about wRC+, then?

Schmidt 147

Beltre 115

Robinson 104

In all three cases, within one point of their OPS+.    

 

[Can_of_corn]

12 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Enough to piss you off, I bet.

That's my default status.

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

That's my default status.

Pearl Jam blows.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

 

How about wRC+, then?

Schmidt 147

Beltre 115

Robinson 104

In all three cases, within one point of their OPS+.    

 

wRC+ is a good one as well. Interesting how different they are vs OPS+.

[SteveA]

5 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

He had 10 gold gloves.  What else are you supposed to go off of?  Not as if fans outside of Philly got to see him play that often.

How many Phillies games do you think were televised in Baltimore in 1986?

I grew up in Howard County and when I pointed the antenna the right way, I could pull in channel 8 from York PA that had a Phillies game at least once a week.  It was a little fuzzy at times.   

[Sports Guy]

Beltre was better than Brooks.  People mention the eras but let’s not forget that Beltre played most of his career in pitchers parks and in divisions filled with pitchers parks.  
 

Im not sure where you rank Brooks.  WAR he is 7th.  JAWS he is 8th.  
 

I don’t believe Boggs, Brett and  Chipper have been mentioned in this thread either and you can make a case they are all better too.

Brooks is unquestionably #1 defensively though.

[DrungoHazewood]

18 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Nettles and Grich belong in the Hall of Very Good, but as soon as Harold Baines made it in, it sure does make it hard to say guys who produced 30+ more WAR over their careers don't also belong in there.

Wherever you draw the line there will always be grey area guys to argue about.  But the Hall kind of smashed all the arguments about it being only legendary inner circle guys when the writers (not even Vet's Committee!) started inducting players somewhere between Matt Wieters and Nick Markakis in the mid-40s.

[DrungoHazewood]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:22 AM, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

The one thing that pisses me off about Ortiz getting in to the HOF on the first try is until now a player only being a DH was held against them like Edgar Martinez. Martinez waited until the end of his eligibility before the writers finally voted him into the HOF. 

Martinez had a higher career WAR (68.4 bWAR vs 55.3 for Ortiz) than Ortiz and only moved to DH from 3B after injuring his knee. Ortiz was just a bad defensive player who couldn't hack it at 1B. 

Ortiz had 369 postseason plate appearances and a nearly .950 OPS.  Martinez 160 something with an OPS 80 points lower. 

You can make the argument that each postseason PA is worth several multiples of any regular season PA.  That would make the gap smaller.

I can see the logic in that.  Today's players on big money dynastic teams can get 300, 400, or (in Jeter's case) 734 high-leverage postseason plate appearances.  As much as I dislike the difference in opportunity compared to players on other teams*, that actually happened and players should probably be credited for it. 

* Imagine being, say, Brian Roberts' agent.  Sure, we'll resign with the Orioles.  But knowing that his Championship Probability Added will be dwarfed by even mediocre Yanks and Dodgers who're in the postseason every year, we'll need an additional $20M.  What's that, you can't afford to outbid the Yanks by $20M because you're a small market team?  Okay, Brian is happy going elsewhere.