Making pitching decisions will be crazy this year

[Frobby]

4 hours ago, seak05 said:

Just went and looked it up, major league avg for innings pitched per starter last year was 5. Orioles were the worst at 4.5, Tampa Bay was next at 4.6. Think the Orioles would be best served by re-thinking "starting" pitching, and stop trying to get much more then 4 out of guys not named Means (and maybe Lyles). 

Innings pitched per start has been ramping down for years, but I think it dropped pretty precipitously last year because teams were protecting their starters after pitching so few innings in 2020.   I would not be surprised if IP per start ticked up a little from 2021 levels this year.   I hope it does for us, as a result of more competence.   

[waroriole]

1 hour ago, jabba72 said:

Looking at his minor league stats Wells last pitched in 2018 and threw 119 innings, but didnt pitch the following two years. Thats good for his arm, I guess. But had two IL stints-shoulder inflammation and wrist tendinitis in 57  innings for Baltimore. I think they'll want to start slow with Wells instead of starting the year in the rotation. We dont really know how his shoulder or wrist will hold up. 

I expect the pitching staff to have at least 8 guys who can give 3-4 innings out of the gate. It’ll be a good way to evaluate a lot of people at once and see who’s effective. With Grayson and possibly Hall coming up in the summer, I could see this continuing all year. Means and Lyles might be the only guys who pitch like traditional SP this year. 

[Can_of_corn]

22 minutes ago, waroriole said:

I expect the pitching staff to have at least 8 guys who can give 3-4 innings out of the gate. It’ll be a good way to evaluate a lot of people at once and see who’s effective. With Grayson and possibly Hall coming up in the summer, I could see this continuing all year. Means and Lyles might be the only guys who pitch like traditional SP this year. 

After all this time shouldn't they know what they have by now?

[waroriole]

54 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

After all this time shouldn't they know what they have by now?

No not really. Wells, Bradish, Baumann, Lowther, Kremer all have less than 100 IP at the ML level. Akin only has 120. A lot left to learn. 

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, waroriole said:

No not really. Wells, Bradish, Baumann, Lowther, Kremer all have less than 100 IP at the ML level. Akin only has 120. A lot left to learn. 

I know they don't.

I said shouldn't they.

They haven't had enough time fielding purposefully non-competitive teams the last few years to get these guys innings?

Why are we still in have to see what these guys can do mode?

One advantage of having teams you know aren't going anywhere is giving young players a chance to play.

The 2003 Tigers gave Jeremy Bonderman 28 starts as a 20 year old, he lost 19 games.  He pitched eight more seasons.

 

[waroriole]

25 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I know they don't.

I said shouldn't they.

They haven't had enough time fielding purposefully non-competitive teams the last few years to get these guys innings?

Why are we still in have to see what these guys can do mode?

One advantage of having teams you know aren't going anywhere is giving young players a chance to play.

The 2003 Tigers gave Jeremy Bonderman 28 starts as a 20 year old, he lost 19 games.  He pitched eight more seasons.

 

No they shouldn’t. Wells was just acquired last year. Bradish hasn’t worked his way up to Baltimore yet. Baumann was returning from injury and finally made his way to Baltimore last year. Lowther had injury problems last year. Kremer just performed poorly last year, so this might be a last chance for him.  Same with Akin. 
 

None of the guys mentioned above were held back. They came up when they were ready. 
 

As to Bonderman, I don’t understand why you’re citing him. He came up too early and pitched a few years but didn’t have a great career. Certainly not a ringing endorsement for how a pitcher should be skyrocketed through a system. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, waroriole said:

No they shouldn’t. Wells was just acquired last year. Bradish hasn’t worked his way up to Baltimore yet. Baumann was returning from injury and finally made his way to Baltimore last year. Lowther had injury problems last year. Kremer just performed poorly last year, so this might be a last chance for him.  Same with Akin. 
 

None of the guys mentioned above were held back. They came up when they were ready. 
 

As to Bonderman, I don’t understand why you’re citing him. He came up too early and pitched a few years but didn’t have a great career. Certainly not a ringing endorsement for how a pitcher should be skyrocketed through a system. 

He pitched nine seasons!

How many of these guys are going to pitch nine seasons in the majors?

I picked him because:

1. I remembered him
2. He wasn't a big named star player, I don't want to compare these guys to an All-star caliber player, it isn't fair to them.
3. He was brought up very young and allowed to learn on the job, instead of being sent up and down and moved around.

Are you saying you wouldn't take a Bonderman level career for any of Wells, Bradish, Baumann, Lowther, Kremer or Akin?

He was a perfectly serviceable major league pitcher for his years of team control.

Three years of tanking and we don't know, for sure, about any of the young pitching.

[waroriole]

8 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

He pitched nine seasons!

How many of these guys are going to pitch nine seasons in the majors?

I picked him because:

1. I remembered him
2. He wasn't a big named star player, I don't want to compare these guys to an All-star caliber player, it isn't fair to them.
3. He was brought up very young and allowed to learn on the job, instead of being sent up and down and moved around.

Are you saying you wouldn't take a Bonderman level career for any of Wells, Bradish, Baumann, Lowther, Kremer or Akin?

He was a perfectly serviceable major league pitcher for his years of team control.

Three years of tanking and we don't know, for sure, about any of the young pitching.

You’re really going all in on this Bonderman thing. I don’t care. 
 

Again, it’s been explained why we don’t/shouldn’t know enough about them. If you have any specifics on which pitcher has been held back, let’s discuss them. Just because some guy came up 20 years ago at age 20, doesn’t mean it’s right for him or anyone of this era. 

[Jammer7]

6 hours ago, jabba72 said:

I think the rotation is Means-Lyles-Zimmerman-Lowther-Akin/Kremer. Start Bradish in AAA, use T. Wells in a bulk role. 

It could very well be as you said. For me, using T. Wells in a bulk role will be difficult to control his appearances and innings. If you want to properly stretch him out and help him stay healthy, you get him on a starter’s routine. Regular starts and side sessions.

Akin is destined to be a reliever until he firms up his chubby body and his secondaries. If Kremer suddenly realizes he can compete with his stuff, fine. Straight 94 mph 4S fastballs get hit a long long way in the AL East. Kremer needs to be tougher, and compete more. He looked very lost all last year. 

If Bradish is what he looked to be against the Yankees A lineup, he has nothing to prove in AAA. Maybe he just had one good outing. Either way, he should not be down long. 

[Can_of_corn]

35 minutes ago, waroriole said:

You’re really going all in on this Bonderman thing. I don’t care. 
 

Again, it’s been explained why we don’t/shouldn’t know enough about them. If you have any specifics on which pitcher has been held back, let’s discuss them. Just because some guy came up 20 years ago at age 20, doesn’t mean it’s right for him or anyone of this era. 

I'm not going all in on anything.  You asked why I mentioned him so I was polite enough to tell you.

Not sure why you wanted to dismiss his perfectly cromulent career.

Three years of not even trying should have provided more data on what the O's have.  We shouldn't still have a long list of guys that we aren't sure what they are. 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I know they don't.

I said shouldn't they.

They haven't had enough time fielding purposefully non-competitive teams the last few years to get these guys innings?

Why are we still in have to see what these guys can do mode?

One advantage of having teams you know aren't going anywhere is giving young players a chance to play.

The 2003 Tigers gave Jeremy Bonderman 28 starts as a 20 year old, he lost 19 games.  He pitched eight more seasons.

 

Yeah, it’s the Orioles fault that there were no minor league games in 2020 and only 60 major league games.   

The O’s have by no means held these pitchers back.   
 

[waroriole]

14 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm not going all in on anything.  You asked why I mentioned him so I was polite enough to tell you.

Not sure why you wanted to dismiss his perfectly cromulent career.

Three years of not even trying should have provided more data on what the O's have.  We shouldn't still have a long list of guys that we aren't sure what they are. 

So I guess that’s a no on saying how any of the above mentioned players were held back?

Bonderman certainly has embiggened himself in your eyes, but to me he’s a below league average SP for the entirety of his career. 

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Yeah, it’s the Orioles fault that there were no minor league games in 2020 and only 60 major league games.   

The O’s have by no means held these pitchers back.   
 

They could have been more aggressive.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, waroriole said:

So I guess that’s a no on saying how any of the above mentioned players were held back?

Bonderman certainly has embiggened himself in your eyes, but to me he’s a below league average SP for the entirety of his career. 

I asked earlier but I'll rephrase it.  Of the guys you listed how many of them would you not take Bonderman's career for them?

Who do you think is going to outperform him?

[waroriole]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

I asked earlier but I'll rephrase it.  Of the guys you listed how many of them would you not take Bonderman's career for them?

Who do you think is going to outperform him?

Literally nothing to do with the original discussion. Just a diversion since your original comment was proven wrong.