2022 #7 prospect Joey Ortiz - SS

[RZNJ]

15 minutes ago, Pickles said:

The shift is going to effect second basemen as well- perhaps even more so than SS.  We can ask Tony, but I don't think Tony sees a plus defensive second baseman and specifically mentioned today a possible move to first base.

Ok.  You said you didn't think it was universal.  So you don't care about the 4 sites I mentioned.   So now it comes down to Tony?   I think you'll be disappointed to find that Tony, I believe, thinks he can be at least average defensively at 2B but I'll wait for Tony to chime in.

I know Tony has changed his opinion somewhat from this 2021 observation. "Defensively, he has very good instincts at shortstop along with good range and hands. His only downfall is an average at best arm that may suggest his better future is at second base."

Edited November 15, 2022 by RZNJ

[Frobby]

36 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Well, again there was just the article floating around the board a few weeks ago where Westburg fell off the top 100, and his defensive concerns- specifically not being aided by the shift anymore- were prevalently cited as to why.

My recollection is, he was never in the top 100.   He was considered by one of the pundits who said he was holding him off for reevaluation in light of the new shift rules.   Might have been Callis or Longenhagen who said it.  I didn’t feel it was a strong indictment against him, but definitely not a positive.  

Edit:  here’s the quote:

Eric A Longenhagen: Ortiz will be in the top 100 update, Westburg is part of a group of upper-level infielders who defense needs to be re-evaluated in light of the banned shift. What are his realistic defensive homes now that he doesn’t get a lift from the shift? How does he fit there. Guys who shift to 1B/3B, it’s a much higher bar than the MIF

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Frobby

[Pickles]

10 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Ok.  You said you didn't think it was universal.  So you don't care about the 4 sites I mentioned.   So now it comes down to Tony?   I think you'll be disappointed to find that Tony, I believe, thinks he can be at least average defensively at 2B but I'll wait for Tony to chime in.

I know Tony has changed his opinion somewhat from this 2021 observation. "Defensively, he has very good instincts at shortstop along with good range and hands. His only downfall is an average at best arm that may suggest his better future is at second base."

Buddy, you're pretty antagonistic today.  

Do you know what universal means?  It doesn't mean I "don't care" about your citations.  It means everyone is in agreement.  Not everyone is in agreement about Westburg's defensive abilities and his defensive future.  That's indisputable.  

[RZNJ]

55 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Buddy, you're pretty antagonistic today.  

Do you know what universal means?  It doesn't mean I "don't care" about your citations.  It means everyone is in agreement.  Not everyone is in agreement about Westburg's defensive abilities and his defensive future.  That's indisputable.  

I thought universal meant the "great majority" not every single living soul.  But, hey, find me someone who says Westburg will likely be below average at 2B or even "just average".   

I originally said he would be at least average if not above average.   You questioned if that was universal.   I did my part.   I can lead a horse to water but you don't seem thirsty.

Edited November 15, 2022 by RZNJ

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I thought universal meant the "great majority" not every single living soul.  But, hey, find me someone who says Westburg will likely be below average at 2B or even "just average".   

I originally said he would be at least average if not above average.   You questioned if that was universal.   I did my part.   I can lead a horse to water but you don't seem thirsty.

You are not correct.

Merriam-Webster: 

Quote

including or covering all or a whole collectively or distributively without limit or exception

Cambridge:

Quote

existing everywhere or involving everyone:

Vocabulary.com

Quote

applicable to or common to all members of a group or set

Dictionary.com

Quote

applicable everywhere or in all cases; general:

 

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

You are not correct.

Merriam-Webster: 

Cambridge:

Vocabulary.com

Dictionary.com

 

Thank you, Miriam.   Until we find someone who thinks Westburg is below average or even average at 2B then it is UNIVERSAL.  So far I have provided evidence to suggest that he'll probably be at least average.  No one else has shown anything to dispute that except a blip from Fangraphs saying he'd have to be re-examined.   

Edited November 15, 2022 by RZNJ

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

Thank you, Miriam.   Until we find someone who thinks Westburg is below average or even average at 2B then it is UNIVERSAL.  So far I have provided evidence to suggest that he'll probably be at least average.  No one else has shown anything to dispute that except a blip from Fangraphs saying he'd have to be re-examined.   

Just doing what I can to keep you from looking stupid.

It takes a village.

[RZNJ]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Just doing what I can to keep you from looking stupid.

It takes a village.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.  I heard that once.

[RZNJ]

And this is what I originally said.

"I think there's little doubt Westburg can be at least an average 2B, maybe above average."

 

Can anyone one find one source that thinks Westburg won't be at least average at 2B?   I said MAYBE above average.

[RZNJ]

Just now, RZNJ said:

And this is what I originally said.

"I think there's little doubt Westburg can be at least an average 2B, maybe above average."

 

Can anyone one find one source that thinks Westburg won't be at least average at 2B?   I said MAYBE above average.   I know I"m asking a lot.

 

[Just Regular]

My memory of Longenhagen throwing shade was it even went as far as to characterize Westburg as a "shift-enabled" 2B, which to me basically implies he lacks the foot speed to cover the middle infield, especially if he has to stay on the dirt and can't go into shotgun formation back on the grass.    It was just a surprising contrast from many of the reports before, some of which wondered about his SS viability, but none about his MI ability period.

Fangraphs has cultivated their rep as a tough grader, so Longenhagen as likely as anyone to say something like that.   Its just a palate cleanser from the rainbows and sunshine every Club puts out about their guys.    Notable to me Keith Law not taking that sharp position - he seems to relish those in general (Grayson Rodriguez, meh) when he sees opportunities to take them.

I hear some like Westburg best at 1B anyway

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.  I heard that once.

You are the one that decided to make a snide remark when all I did was respond to your question with four distinct references.

[RZNJ]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

You are the one that decided to make a snide remark when all I did was respond to your question with four distinct references.

 

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

You are the one that decided to make a snide remark when all I did was respond to your question with four distinct references.

That's interesting because I didn't ask a question.  LOL

[seak05]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

My recollection is, he was never in the top 100.   He was considered by one of the pundits who said he was holding him off for reevaluation in light of the new shift rules.   Might have been Callis or Longenhagen who said it.  I didn’t feel it was a strong indictment against him, but definitely not a positive.  

Edit:  here’s the quote:

Eric A Longenhagen: Ortiz will be in the top 100 update, Westburg is part of a group of upper-level infielders who defense needs to be re-evaluated in light of the banned shift. What are his realistic defensive homes now that he doesn’t get a lift from the shift? How does he fit there. Guys who shift to 1B/3B, it’s a much higher bar than the MIF

 

Yeah, I remembered that chat as well. I'm curious as to Tony's take on Westburg's defense. If he's an above avg (not elite) defensive second basemen then I can see putting him above Ortiz...but I don't know, legit major league SS, I think I'd have Ortiz above Westburg and others. Tony definitely seems more bullish on Westburg and Mayo then I am (and he knows a heck of a lot more)

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

 

That's interesting because I didn't ask a question.  LOL

Quote

I thought universal meant the "great majority" not every single living soul.

 

You were clearly confused and actively seeking guidance.

I should have expected you to prove to be ungrateful for my assistance.