Lengthy quotes from Elias - 12/7

[DrungoHazewood]

39 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

The Orioles don’t need anybody’s help to look bad, I think they are taking care of that all on their own…lol

Why would the reporters who cover the team want the O’s to be bad or not be able to attract Free Agents? That would be self sabotaging. They need/want the O’s to be relevant in order for people to be interested in their work.

Looking across the media landscape it appears that there's market research suggesting that negative reporting driving anger and disappointment and resentment is more effective at drawing clicks and eyeballs and revenue than positivity and optimism.

[btdart20]

8 hours ago, orioles119 said:

It's a classic case of reporting before getting all the facts, or intentionally holding back quotes to make a bigger impact - whether that means to make the organization look bad and continue the preceived status quo that the Orioles won't spend.

It's along the lines of the comments made by Ruiz and Connolly, looking to through cold water on the potential of the Orioles attracting free agents to Baltimore.

Looking at the entirety of the comments, it makes me believe that Elias is looking to build something that will last longer than something a free agent can bring.

Ruiz/Connolly (and posters here) know their audience.  They know fans are pining for a winning team.  Feed them some red meat and enjoy the ensuing recognition/publicity/following.

 

And we don’t want to run into a situation where we’re having to trade some of our core players away because we’ve signed a guy to take their spot. 

Obviously, keeping the prospect core together is Elias' long-term priority of building a perennial winner.  As others have rightfully noted, there's a lot of potential outcomes for prospects.  We've seen 'can't miss' guys miss.  We've seen the cavalry ride in on ponies.  We've seen ROY contenders become marginal a year or two later.  Elias trusts these guys.  The eye test and bean-counters trust these guys. 

I do think we can spend some more heading into 2023 for a TOR to bump our odds without impacting that long-term vision.  And maybe Elias was green-lit (lighted?) to float a 1-2 year/$45m deal to Rodon?  Maybe there's some type of fire under the 'bird of prey' smoke?  But the length of contract correlates to more guaranteed money.

It sounds like Elias didn't anticipate the aggressive spending by other GMs this off-season.  He'll need to figure that piece out so that he can game the room/pick his targets a little better.  3D Chess not checkers.  Agents/players also have their game theory as well (in addition to other teams) and they seem to be playing the market well.

It sounds like Elias puts a price tag on his bids and gives himself very little wiggle room.  That's a long-term plus, but a short-term constraint and needs to go into the game play strategy each off-season.

Doesn’t mean that we’re not looking at trades where we’re either trading prospects or maybe trading players on our major league team, but we’re being mindful of the next several years because I think we’ve got a very healthy period of time coming up for us.”

It sounds like he'll be seeing what's behind door #2 after the FA market cools down.  But even that will be tempered by the prospect valuation.  We have to pick our prospect horses to trade away well.

[Bemorewins]

11 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Looking across the media landscape it appears that there's market research suggesting that negative reporting driving anger and disappointment and resentment is more effective at drawing clicks and eyeballs and revenue than positivity and optimism.

That is not sustainable though. For people to be angry that actually have to be emotionally invested. I think that may have been the case years ago for the Orioles. Now, people will just go back to running them out. They had just started to begin to recapture the community’s (fan base) attention. 
 

The problem with alienating supporters/fans is if they figure out they can live without you. I would say that was already largely the case. The Orioles were just beginning to recapture fan interest. I don’t know what happens from here after this. It probably won’t be good though.

[Frobby]

12 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

And this friends is my biggest fear. The Rays are not even relevant in their own market.

For those fans who live in this community why would we be rushing to sign up for this? Like how is the Orioles being irrelevant good for the community? 

Good but never great, I don’t think is a good goal. That’s like saying we are striving to settle for being just above average.

I think this is a real misread of the Rays situation.  They’ve made the playoffs 8 of the last 15 seasons, they’ve been to the World Series twice, they’ve won 100, 97, 96 and 96 games (and 40 in a 60-game season).   They’ve been plenty good enough to win a World Series; they just haven’t done it.  

Yoy know, from 1972 to 1982 the Orioles didn’t win a World Series.   But they were a good team.  Do you think the Baltimore fan base wasn’t engaged with those teams?  I can tell you, they were.   If Tampa Bay Area fans aren’t engaged with the Rays, that’s on them.   They aren’t wired the way Orioles fans are.   

The best way to win a championship is to go to the playoffs a lot.  If that’s Elias’ goal, I’m all for it.  

 

[RVAOsFan]

Some of the takes in this thread and on this board the past 24 hours are wild.  A couple months ago there were threads about what ownership needed to do to make sure we didn't lose Elias to another team (promotion, extension, etc).  We are on day 3 of the winter meetings and you would think this guy kicked your dog and stole Christmas.

The team won a lot more games than anyone predicted last year.  Watching Orioles baseball all summer long was FUN.  I look forward to watching FUN Orioles baseball all summer long and into the fall for the next several years.  Elias has stated he has multi year deals out for starting pitchers and is interested in bats that would be opening day starters, he is looking to make improvements to this team.

For the crowd out there that thinks he needs to go all in (whatever that means) to win a championship, how often does that work? How often does a team win an off season and flop on the field.  Winning championships is about putting yourself in a situation to compete and catching a few breaks that help you win it all.  I want to see this team have multiple chances at it over the next several year because we are due to catch some breaks.

 

[Bemorewins]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think this is a real misread of the Rays situation.  They’ve made the playoffs 8 of the last 15 seasons, they’ve been to the World Series twice, they’ve won 100, 97, 96 and 96 games (and 40 in a 60-game season).   They’ve been plenty good enough to win a World Series; they just haven’t done it.  

Yoy know, from 1972 to 1982 the Orioles didn’t win a World Series.   But they were a good team.  Do you think the Baltimore fan base wasn’t engaged with those teams?  I can tell you, they were.   If Tampa Bay Area fans aren’t engaged with the Rays, that’s on them.   They aren’t wired the way Orioles fans are.   

The best way to win a championship is to go to the playoffs a lot.  If that’s Elias’ goal, I’m all for it.  

 

Rays (and before them A’s) fans weren’t/aren’t engaged because those orgs operated in isolation of the fans and continued to alienate them despite winning. 
 

Like ignoring the fan experience by refusing to build new stadiums or make significant upgrades to what they have. 
 

From a baseball perspective, the watched year after year being close but having ownership/management being unwilling to invest in moves that would put them over the top. Plus I imagine, the whole team turnover every 3 years or so is also not attractive to most people who are not diehards. I don’t most people in the community are willing to spend the time and energy to have to relearn a new team every few years. 
 

I know that you may not agree with this, but I believe this wholeheartedly. The name(s) on the back of the jersey matter especially to younger fans.

The world is a lot different than it was in the 70s and 80s. People have way more entertainment options and as a society in general don’t share the same ethic of institutional loyalty. The philosophy of “all the Orioles have to do is be a good team” I don’t believe will be good enough especially if they continue to alienate large swaths of the fan base. 
 

Another problem with the approach which is different from the 70s, 80s, even most of the 90s is the effect of the internet with access to information. The Orioles cannot whisk away with clever words, the fact that they received 250- 300+ million this offseason and then claim to cry oh poor us. 
 

Some people are asking “how are these salaries going up like this?” It’s because of the revenue in the game right now. The players have seen it and are demanding their cut. 
 

I do agree that winning a World Series will be the biggest cure all and will be the best way to reengage fans and make the team relevant in the community (at least in that short term period). But I am leery of us getting there by adopting the approach of “punting on free agency”. There are only so many ways to make the team better and when you just shut yourself off from one avenue, you have to be that much more efficient with everything else you do.

Lastly, I was born in 1980. So I’m not sure how relevant that dominant stretch is to me and people younger than me, when we don’t share the memories of success that you do. For most of my life, the Orioles having been a losing team that has been mismanaged by poor ownership. Like, I have never experienced a World Series game being played in Baltimore. And I’m closer to 50 than I am 30.

[Roll Tide]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

I said everything he said was reasonable.  I can't stop you from adding in your speculation which has nothing to do with what he actually said.  

We can agree to disagree…. They are pocketing $220 Million this year even if the payroll rises to $60-$65. It’s not speculation it’s a fact. Or more disgracefully watching John and his mother pockets 10s of millions.

I think baseball you institute a minimum payrolls that require them to spend revenue sharing and tv money. Or have put in escrow for a future contract rather than in the pockets of a piss poor ownership group.
 

If you want to buy the nonsensical BS go right ahead. Reasonable is a point of view also.

Fans can be okay with them shopping in the bargain bin and scrap heap. And then making excuses and correcting a previous statement. But, I don’t have to ….How are you going to feel as you watch our kids start leaving when they near free agency when the Orioles are lost in understanding the economics of the game. 
 

They can talk to every available free agent and come away empty every year. Then spread info through the MASN parrot. 
 

As I stated, I don’t care if they don’t sign Rodon or DeGrom. Same with Correa, Boegarts, etc. but, don’t pretend that your in when you really aren’t. Tired of hearing the casting a wide net comments by O’s GM. They should just be honest with fans and proclaim that we are now the A’s or Rays. Wait the Rays led our division in spending this offseason ($40 million) before the Judge and Kodai signings. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Roll Tide

[tabletop]

57 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

And this friends is my biggest fear. The Rays are not even relevant in their own market.

For those fans who live in this community why would we be rushing to sign up for this? Like how is the Orioles being irrelevant good for the community? 

Good but never great, I don’t think is a good goal. That’s like saying we are striving to settle for being just above average.

Well, that's up to the community as a whole. If you aren't interested turn it off and eventually if enough people do maybe it'll change. I don't think it's a good goal either. Look at the Padres their media market is 27th and they are spending around 250m this year while Baltimore is 28th and is spending (as of now) around 50m while they tell you it's just the way it is for a team in their market going against teams from bigger markets. They can tell you that they're being smart and this is how smart teams operate all they want but the fact is the Orioles owners aren't in it for championships they're in it to make money. Maybe they were chasing titles in the past, maybe they will be chasing them again in the future, but as of right now that's not what they're after.

[Bemorewins]

5 minutes ago, tabletop said:

Well, that's up to the community as a whole. If you aren't interested turn it off and eventually if enough people do maybe it'll change. I don't think it's a good goal either. Look at the Padres their media market is 27th and they are spending around 250m this year while Baltimore is 28th and is spending (as of now) around 50m while they tell you it's just the way it is for a team in their market going against teams from bigger markets. They can tell you that they're being smart and this is how smart teams operate all they want but the fact is the Orioles owners aren't in it for championships they're in it to make money. Maybe they were chasing titles in the past, maybe they will be chasing them again in the future, but as of right now that's not what they're after.

It appears that our only hope is if/when the Angeloses sell. Until then us fans will be screwed.

[elextrano8]

8 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

1. Why would they say that even if it’s true. 
 

2. Action speak louder than words. It’s obvious they are shopping at the dollar store.

3. The team needs to score more runs and add a good veteran SP. Gibson was a sideways move. They took a pitcher that probably goes back to the Sox at some point as the shuttle will be difficult with a  flexibility spot missing. The rest of the moves made are just filler moves. Nothing to be mad about but more than likely don’t matter unless your goal is the AAA World Series. 

lol did you seriously seek out a post of mine for a retaliatory downvote???

[Going Underground]

40 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Rays (and before them A’s) fans weren’t/aren’t engaged because those orgs operated in isolation of the fans and continued to alienate them despite winning. 
 

Like ignoring the fan experience by refusing to build new stadiums or make significant upgrades to what they have. 
 

From a baseball perspective, the watched year after year being close but having ownership/management being unwilling to invest in moves that would put them over the top. Plus I imagine, the whole team turnover every 3 years or so is also not attractive to most people who are not diehards. I don’t most people in the community are willing to spend the time and energy to have to relearn a new team every few years. 
 

I know that you may not agree with this, but I believe this wholeheartedly. The name(s) on the back of the jersey matter especially to younger fans.

The world is a lot different than it was in the 70s and 80s. People have way more entertainment options and as a society in general don’t share the same ethic of institutional loyalty. The philosophy of “all the Orioles have to do is be a good team” I don’t believe will be good enough especially if they continue to alienate large swaths of the fan base. 
 

Another problem with the approach which is different from the 70s, 80s, even most of the 90s is the effect of the internet with access to information. The Orioles cannot whisk away with clever words, the fact that they received 250- 300+ million this offseason and then claim to cry oh poor us. 
 

Some people are asking “how are these salaries going up like this?” It’s because of the revenue in the game right now. The players have seen it and are demanding their cut. 
 

I do agree that winning a World Series will be the biggest cure all and will be the best way to reengage fans and make the team relevant in the community (at least in that short term period). But I am leery of us getting there by adopting the approach of “punting on free agency”. There are only so many ways to make the team better and when you just shut yourself off from one avenue, you have to be that much more efficient with everything else you do.

Lastly, I was born in 1980. So I’m not sure how relevant that dominant stretch is to me and people younger than me, when we don’t share the memories of success that you do. For most of my life, the Orioles having been a losing team that has been mismanaged by poor ownership. Like, I have never experienced a World Series game being played in Baltimore. And I’m closer to 50 than I am 30.

The Orioles upgrades are going to be paid for the stadium through the state. Not sure the A's and Rays where going to be building the stadiums with their money. I know the Rays owner said he would pay for half of the new stadium  A's new stadium at Howard Terminal is  looking for $1 billion in public funds.  The state will give the Orioles  $600 m  in public funds. If the Orioles sign a new lease, they get $600 million in development funds 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Going Underground

[Bemorewins]

5 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

The Orioles upgrades are going to be paid for the stadium through the state. Not sure the A's and Rays where going to be building the stadiums with their money. I know the Rays owner said he would pay for half of the new stadium  A's new stadium at Howard Terminal is  looking for $1 billion in public funds.  The state will give the Orioles  $600 m  in public funds. If the Orioles sign a new lease, they get $600 million in development funds 

I wasn’t talking about the Orioles getting or needing a new stadium. I was talking about the A’s and Rays.

I sure hope that the O’s won’t be getting a new stadium built with any taxpayer money. 
 

Why in the world should they be rewarded with something that they don’t need for operating in the cheap manner that they have been doing the last 4/5 years?

If that is in any way put to a vote. I would be totally against that.

[Frobby]

56 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

We can agree to disagree…. They are pocketing $220 Million this year even if the payroll rises to $60-$65. It’s not speculation it’s a fact.

No it’s not.  Teams have a lot of expenses other than payroll.  In 2021 on $251 mm in revenue they had operating income of $83 mm.   That’s before interest payments and taxes, among other things.  

Now, they are still pocketing plenty of money.  But it’s not on the order of $220 mm, even with the increase in TV revenue and the BAMTech money.   

Again, I’m not disputing that the O’s could spend significantly more on payroll.   It’s just not $220 mm.

 

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, Roll Tide said:

We can agree to disagree…. They are pocketing $220 Million this year even if the payroll rises to $60-$65. It’s not speculation it’s a fact. Or more disgracefully watching John and his mother pockets 10s of millions.

I think baseball you institute a minimum payrolls that require them to spend revenue sharing and tv money. Or have put in escrow for a future contract rather than in the pockets of a piss poor ownership group.
 

If you want to buy the nonsensical BS go right ahead. Reasonable is a point of view also.

Fans can be okay with them shopping in the bargain bin and scrap heap. And then making excuses and correcting a previous statement. But, I don’t have to ….How are you going to feel as you watch our kids start leaving when they near free agency when the Orioles are lost in understanding the economics of the game. 
 

They can talk to every available free agent and come away empty every year. Then spread info through the MASN parrot. 
 

As I stated, I don’t care if they don’t sign Rodon or DeGrom. Same with Correa, Boegarts, etc. but, don’t pretend that your in when you really aren’t. Tired of hearing the casting a wide net comments by O’s GM. They should just be honest with fans and proclaim that we are now the A’s or Rays. Wait the Rays led our division in spending this offseason ($40 million) before the Judge and Kodai signings. 

You keep talking about other stuff.  Can't stop you.   If you read exactly what Elias said, it's all very reasonable.   Period.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

Rays (and before them A’s) fans weren’t/aren’t engaged because those orgs operated in isolation of the fans and continued to alienate them despite winning. 
 

Like ignoring the fan experience by refusing to build new stadiums or make significant upgrades to what they have. 
 

From a baseball perspective, the watched year after year being close but having ownership/management being unwilling to invest in moves that would put them over the top. Plus I imagine, the whole team turnover every 3 years or so is also not attractive to most people who are not diehards. I don’t most people in the community are willing to spend the time and energy to have to relearn a new team every few years. 
 

I know that you may not agree with this, but I believe this wholeheartedly. The name(s) on the back of the jersey matter especially to younger fans.

The world is a lot different than it was in the 70s and 80s. People have way more entertainment options and as a society in general don’t share the same ethic of institutional loyalty. The philosophy of “all the Orioles have to do is be a good team” I don’t believe will be good enough especially if they continue to alienate large swaths of the fan base. 
 

Another problem with the approach which is different from the 70s, 80s, even most of the 90s is the effect of the internet with access to information. The Orioles cannot whisk away with clever words, the fact that they received 250- 300+ million this offseason and then claim to cry oh poor us. 
 

Some people are asking “how are these salaries going up like this?” It’s because of the revenue in the game right now. The players have seen it and are demanding their cut. 
 

I do agree that winning a World Series will be the biggest cure all and will be the best way to reengage fans and make the team relevant in the community (at least in that short term period). But I am leery of us getting there by adopting the approach of “punting on free agency”. There are only so many ways to make the team better and when you just shut yourself off from one avenue, you have to be that much more efficient with everything else you do.

Lastly, I was born in 1980. So I’m not sure how relevant that dominant stretch is to me and people younger than me, when we don’t share the memories of success that you do. For most of my life, the Orioles having been a losing team that has been mismanaged by poor ownership. Like, I have never experienced a World Series game being played in Baltimore. And I’m closer to 50 than I am 30.

I agree with some of what you say.  The fan experience obviously is very important.   But let’s be clear: going to OPACY for a game is an excellent experience, especially in comparison with Oakland Coliseum or Tropicana Field.  There’s no comparison.  

As to the “name of the back of the jersey” issue, I don’t expect the Orioles to go quite as far as Oakland or Tampa in jettisoning their best players all the time.  I do think it will happen, but there will be a core who the team locks up for a while, I expect.  I think this will be a mixed bag, some staying, some going.  

You talked about the downside of the information on the internet, but there’s also an upside - fans are more familiar with the team’s minor players and more invested in them by the time they arrive in the majors.   So I think the home grown players will add to the team’s identity.   

In the end, I still feel that having a winning team cures most ills.   Oriole fans will come out when the team is winning, regardless of whether the payroll is high or low.