Orioles sign Adam Frazier

[Pickles]

1 minute ago, Slight Upward Arc said:

Literally everyone feeds their ego in some way, shape or form. You think you’ve got some kind of “gotcha” with this whole line of posts this morning, but I honestly don’t get it. Have you done any reading as to how ego’s work? Give it a break. Pretty sure everyone know where you and RZNJ stand, and you guys know where others stand. You’re feeding your ego by continuing to make these posts. 

I'm sorry my posting has offended you.  I'll be sure to stop.  I wouldn't want to hurt your ego.

[eddie83]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

No I disagree. It means the result was fine but the signing itself is terrible. You just can’t justify it.

Historically, MIers tend to decline and fall off in their early 30s.  Perhaps it started early with him? 
 

There is no reason to expect a bounce back.  As Tony said, it’s all hope. Nothing else but that. 
 

Other reasons why this is a poor signing and why the process matters:

1) A “promise” that he can play everyday.  WTF??!?  Why would you even do that. There isn’t anyone on this team that he should get at bats over.

2) They were on him from the beginning?  Seriously?  This is a guy you talk to “when you get around to it”. You should prioritize actual good players.

3) Why sign him now? Are you really that worried that he’s gone?  The longer you wait, the cheaper he gets and if he does sign somewhere else, who gives a sh!t?  
 

We had this discussion about Odor last year. People said, he won’t take at bats from players. They will cut him. It’s worth the risk. None of that ever turned out to be true. Frazier is probably better than Odor but not tremendously so and he cost way more money. The Os will keep giving him chances because they don’t cut guys who are making good money.

 

The idea you can’t justify it is ridiculous. Did it ever occur to you that Elias is not ready to hand 600 at bats to Stowers/Westburg?  How was Westburg going to get that many at bats anyway as long as Urias is on the roster? 

 

You assume that the young players will play well and no injuries will occur. You assume Elias will not make a trade at some point. Kelenic you could argue cost Seattle a playoff spot in 2021 and had they sent him down last year may have again. 
 

Odor once again has no relevance to this move. He was signed as a cheap player in a bridge year when he blocked nobody. If the Orioles run Frazier out there in the summer playing poorly with healthy options available I will be the fist in line to complain. Comparing the 2022 goals and 2023 goals is comparing apples to oranges. Frazier would fall into a backup role later on if he doesn’t play well. 

[eddie83]

4 minutes ago, Slight Upward Arc said:

Literally everyone feeds their ego in some way, shape or form. You think you’ve got some kind of “gotcha” with this whole line of posts this morning, but I honestly don’t get it. Have you done any reading as to how ego’s work? Give it a break. Pretty sure everyone know where you and RZNJ stand, and you guys know where others stand. You’re feeding your ego by continuing to make these posts. 

What is your issue? Why do you attack people who rationally explain their opinion? 
 

Nobody has to agree on anything. What you are doing is lazy. 

[eddie83]

44 minutes ago, DrinkinWithFermi said:

I don't think Elias is stupid or that he thinks he's smarter than everyone else, I just think he isn't particularly concerned with contending in 2023 for whatever reason. 

Why would he spend on Frazier if he didn’t think it would help them? If he didn’t sign him who is complaining?

[Slight Upward Arc]

3 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

What is your issue? Why do you attack people who rationally explain their opinion? 
 

Nobody has to agree on anything. What you are doing is lazy. 

There have been no attacks. Not agreeing is fine. See Frobby. Trying to play "gotcha" and make us negative nellies feel dumb for not being more optimistic is something different. 

[eddie83]

Just now, Slight Upward Arc said:

There have been no attacks. Not agreeing is fine. See Frobby. Trying to play "gotcha" and make us negative nellies feel dumb for not being more optimistic is something different. 

Nobody is doing that. Look at your posts. You attacked me multiple times yesterday. Calling people names is childish. 
 

Making arguments you don’t agree with is making you feel dumb? 
 

Nobody is asking you to be optimistic. You have every right not to be. 

[owknows]

3 minutes ago, Pickles said:

What is hyperbolic about what I'm saying?

I stated that although Elias makes largely good decisions, he has made some decisions that are almost universally recognized as bad and/or head-scratchers. And that Phillips, Aguilar, sticking with Odor, and now potentially Frazier were examples of bad ones. I stated that I thought those decisions were almost universally recognized as bad. Including even by you. And that for a decision to be that obviously bad, and yet still be made by a guy we know is pretty bright, something else must be at play.

I postulated that in the case of these decisions, that thing might be ego. That Elias may have allowed his desire to tease analytical successes out of players that really didn't warrant playing time, may have blinded his objectivity.

In response you first said I characterized him as "indefensibly moronic". Clearly I did not.

You then characterized my position as a descent into "armchair psychology".

You characterized my position as "vitriol" when i made it very clear that I like Elias. And he makes way more good decisions than bad ones on the whole, but like all people, has failings.

You stated I claimed Elias "needed to be the smartest guy in the room." I clearly neither said nor suggested anything of the sort.

You said that my characterization of these decisions as bad was "wildly overblown" when I did not offer any characterization of their magnitude at all.

You said that I stated that Elias makes "systematically poor decisions" when I said that his bad decisions were by far the exception and not the rule.

____________________

I would characterize all of the above as hyperbolic.

I made a simple statement. That for a few of Elias' seeming unexplainable decisions, a desire to defy the odds with analytics may have blinded his better judgement. And that Elias being human, ego may have played a role in that.

This seems somehow to have touched an emotional chord with you, as you have since argued from emotion and hyperbole. Mistakenly telling me what I think, rather than asking. This mode of argumentation is called "straw man". It is characterized by assigning the product of your imagination to whoever you're speaking to, and then attacking that. I have seen you do it before.

 

 

[Slight Upward Arc]

5 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

Nobody is doing that. Look at your posts. You attacked me multiple times yesterday. Calling people names is childish. 
 

Making arguments you don’t agree with is making you feel dumb? 
 

Nobody is asking you to be optimistic. You have every right not to be. 

Feels like trolling to me, yes. Going behind every post you disagree with and pointing out the same things over and over again. If I had a dollar for every post you’ve made the past 48 hours about how Odor last year is irrelevant, I wouldn’t be complaining about inflation anymore. You guys don’t want to present a different viewpoint, as Frobby does, you want people to conform and agree with you. I’m not a believer in Elias as a major league GM. So now that that is known, can I have my opinions without the same defenses being thrown my way everytime I make a post? Doesn’t seem like a big ask. 

[DrinkinWithFermi]

6 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

Why would he spend on Frazier if he didn’t think it would help them? If he didn’t sign him who is complaining?

Service time manipulation for Westburg and/or Ortiz, because he genuinely believes Westburg and/or Ortiz are not ready to contribute at the MLB level, to have a potential trade chip at next year's deadline, to try to create the illusion that the organization is trying while not actually dedicating significant resources towards doing so- take your pick, but it's clearly not because Frazier meaningfully improves our playoff odds in 2023.

[eddie83]

2 minutes ago, Slight Upward Arc said:

Feels like trolling to me, yes. Going behind every post you disagree with and pointing out the same things over and over again. If I had a dollar for every post you’ve made the past 48 hours about how Odor last year is irrelevant, I wouldn’t be complaining about inflation anymore. You guys don’t want to present a different viewpoint, as Frobby does, you want people to conform and agree with you. I’m not a believer in Elias as a major league GM. So now that that is known, can I have my opinions without the same defenses being thrown my way everytime I make a post? Doesn’t seem like a big ask. 

I have done nothing but post a different viewpoint. That’s all I have been doing. I’m not asking you to conform with anything. You can disagree with me anytime I don’t care. 
 

I’m not trolling. It’s a back and forth. 
 

I keep responding to Odor because it floors me why it keeps being brought up. They weren’t trying to win as late as the deadline last year. That has nothing to do with this year.

 

i can separate not being happy with the overall lack of spending and have an opinion on an individual move. 
 

I think the handful of at bats that Aguilar and Phillips had is nothing. If that’s the worst Elias does we should all feel lucky. 

[eddie83]

5 minutes ago, DrinkinWithFermi said:

Service time manipulation for Westburg and/or Ortiz, because he genuinely believes Westburg and/or Ortiz are not ready to contribute at the MLB level, to have a potential trade chip at next year's deadline, to try to create the illusion that the organization is trying while not actually dedicating significant resources towards doing so- take your pick, but it's clearly not because Frazier meaningfully improves our playoff odds in 2023.

 Having Urias on the roster would be explanation enough to keep Westburg down. You think he is going to send Stowers down enough to get a year back? 
 

 

Why do so many people keep bringing Ortiz up. They already have Mateo, Urias and Gunnar on the roster. How would they possibly have both of Ortiz or Westburg here? 
 

I see a bunch of people who are pissed at Elias/ownership over the lack of spending and comments made. All fair. I don’t get attaching those feelings to this move. 
 

The worst case is a couple hundred at bats less for a prospect. Worst case. Nothing more. Nobody dealt, options galore. 

[Frobby]

40 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Well said. I could not have said it better. 

Elias is a smart guy and he's done some really good things to set this organization up for success for a long time. BUT, what he hasn't shown yet is the ability to correctly add major league talent into his organization through trades or free agents that will make this team a true contender.

Imagine if Elias went out and got a real second baseman last offseason instead of Odor? What if we would have won 2 or 3 more games? 

At the end of the day, no one expected the Orioles to contend for a playoff spot and when they were unexpectedly in the race in August. Phillips and Aguilar was how he decided to make his team better. 

At the end of the day, we don't know if Elias can take that next step as a GM and add the right right players through FA and trades to make this team a true contender. 

 

Well, I think we’re going to find out over the next two years.  Why two?  Reading between the lines, I think Elias believes the existing talent won’t be reaching it’s peak until then, and/or that there are players in the upper minors (Westburg, Ortiz, Norby, Cowser) that he’s still evaluating to see how strong his internal solutions are.  He seems to want to make cautious, short-term minor upgrades this year rather than swinging for the fences more.   Not saying I completely agree with that approach, but that’s what I see.  

[owknows]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Well, I think we’re going to find out over the next two years.  Why two?  Reading between the lines, I think Elias believes the existing talent won’t be reaching it’s peak until then, and/or that there are players in the upper minors (Westburg, Ortiz, Norby, Cowser) that he’s still evaluating to see how strong his internal solutions are.  He seems to want to make cautious, short-term minor upgrades this year rather than swinging for the fences more.   Not saying I completely agree with that approach, but that’s what I see.  

This is the explanation I'd like to believe.

But can't, for the following reasons.

Urias, Mateo, Henderson, Westburg, Ortiz, Norby

Toss in Vavra

7 Guys. 3 Positions....  and there are even more guys coming. Talented guys.

Can't keep 'em all. Gonna have to make some trades.

How talented is this bunch? I dunno.

We probably know the most about Urias, Mateo, Henderson. But I think it's fair to say we don't even know what we have in these guys.

But we know even less about the other ones. And in order to make good trade decisions we NEED to know.

So how does it make sense to add another journeyman layer of mediocrity ahead of them, making it impossible to learn?

 

[eddie83]

10 minutes ago, owknows said:

This is the explanation I'd like to believe.

But can't, for the following reasons.

Urias, Mateo, Henderson, Westburg, Ortiz, Norby

Toss in Vavra

7 Guys. 3 Positions....  and there are even more guys coming. Talented guys.

Can't keep 'em all. Gonna have to make some trades.

How talented is this bunch? I dunno.

We probably know the most about Urias, Mateo, Henderson. But I think it's fair to say we don't even know what we have in these guys.

But we know even less about the other ones. And in order to make good trade decisions we NEED to know.

So how does it make sense to add another journeyman layer of mediocrity ahead of them, making it impossible to learn?

 

Why do you have to make permanent decisions now? What is the rush? 

I have never understood the idea that an organization does not have an understanding about a player if they are not on the big league roster. They can still evaluate them at AAA. 
 

This situation will work itself out and Elias has to be very smart in how he handles it. He will be graded on how he does. It’s very important. 

[Frobby]

10 minutes ago, owknows said:

This is the explanation I'd like to believe.

But can't, for the following reasons.

Urias, Mateo, Henderson, Westburg, Ortiz, Norby

Toss in Vavra

7 Guys. 3 Positions....  and there are even more guys coming. Talented guys.

Can't keep 'em all. Gonna have to make some trades.

How talented is this bunch? I dunno.

We probably know the most about Urias, Mateo, Henderson. But I think it's fair to say we don't even know what we have in these guys.

But we know even less about the other ones. And in order to make good trade decisions we NEED to know.

So how does it make sense to add another journeyman layer of mediocrity ahead of them, making it impossible to learn?

 

Some of it’s going to be learned at the minor league level.  Norby and Ortiz won’t be rushed.   They’ll spend most of the year in AAA.   Westburg and Vavra strike me as the guys who are detrimentally affected by the Frazier sigining.  That’s why I think a trade this offseason is likely.