Jordan Westburg 2023

[Billy F-Face3]

I think it's nuts they haven't developed a plan to get Westburg in the big leagues by now. He's done all he can do in the minor leagues. He was the Minor Leagues Player Of The Year in all of baseball.

Guys won't stay young forever,  and they're human just like everyone else. At some point there will be a spoil date on the skills they posess due to age, just like every other athlete and human being. 

It doesn't make sense to me to hoard all these players until their age gets too high and risks their skills.

Westburg deserves a shot in the big leagues.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Billy F-Face3

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

I think it's nuts they haven't developed a plan to get Westburg in the big leagues by now. He's done all he can do in the minor leagues. He was the Minor Leagues Player Of The Year in all of baseball.

Guys won't stay young forever,  and they're human just like everyone else. At some point there will be a spoil date on the skills they posess due to age, just like every other athlete and human being. 

It doesn't make sense to me to hoard all these players until their age gets too high and risks their skills.

Westburg deserves a shot in the big leagues.

No he wasn't.

That was Gunnar.

[Billy F-Face3]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

No he wasn't.

That was Gunnar.

My bad. I was thinking of him being awarded The Orioles Top Minor League Player of The Year.

[yark14]

21 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

I think it's nuts they haven't developed a plan to get Westburg in the big leagues by now. He's done all he can do in the minor leagues. He was the Minor Leagues Player Of The Year in all of baseball.

Guys won't stay young forever,  and they're human just like everyone else. At some point there will be a spoil date on the skills they posess due to age, just like every other athlete and human being. 

It doesn't make sense to me to hoard all these players until their age gets too high and risks their skills.

Westburg deserves a shot in the big leagues.

That is why Elias doesn't want to start the service time clock for anyone not named Gunnar until they are around 25.  That way their prime years occur during arbitration when they are cheap.  By the time they are eligible for free agency, their abilities are just starting to diminish and there isn't a need to fork out big bucks for a contract extension.

Edited May 2, 2023 by yark14

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

My bad. I was thinking of him being awarded The Orioles Top Minor League Player of The Year.

Funny how he won that over Gunnar.

Well deserved I'm sure.

[emmett16]

3 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

You seem to love and advocate for Westburg almost as if he is a friend or family member...lol

Like I said, I don't see a scenario where the O's this season or any other are more dependent upon his success or value OVER Gunnar's. Gunnar doesn't need a vacation/demotion or whatever you want to call it. What he needs to do is be more aggressive and attack pitches in the zone against Major League pitchers. Going down to AAA does nothing for him. It would help Westburg though and give him an opportunity/build his brand/put a few extra dollars in his pocket, etc. Again as a person who is not a family member or personal friend, like myself, why would I care about any of those things?

I think Westburg has a future as a big leaguer. But I am in no way convinced that his future is nearly as bright as Gunnar's. Gunnar was #1 ranked prospect in the sport for a reason. Westburg who is at his peak ranking right now is #66. 1 > 66.

It’s baseball my guy.  

[Bemorewins]

2 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

It’s baseball my guy.  

[Frobby]

5 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Funny how he won that over Gunnar.

Well deserved I'm sure.

I think they felt Gunnar’s promotion to the majors was adequate recognition of his accomplishments.  

[ShoelesJoe]

I know I'm dating myself, but the current situation reminds me of the early '70s when we had Bobby Grich and Don Baylor blowing up AAA, and yet we couldn't find room for them on The Best Damn Team in Baseball. Grich put up close to an 1.100 OPS in 900 ABs for Rochester, while Baylor had a thousand ABs of .990 OPS offense, and yet it still took both of them a couple three years before they were full time starters for the big league club. This was kind of understandable because Grich was blocked by Davey Johnson, and Baylor was fighting for playing time with Frank Robinson, Merv Rettenmund, and Don Buford. Eventually the Orioles dealt some guys to make room for the hot shot kids, but in hindsight they should have unloaded those vets sooner as they wasted some of G&B's prime years in the minors, or as part-timers in the majors. I hope we don't end up repeating that mistake with Westburg, Cowser, Norby, and Ortiz. 

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, ShoelesJoe said:

I know I'm dating myself, but the current situation reminds me of the early '70s when we had Bobby Grich and Don Baylor blowing up AAA, and yet we couldn't find room for them on The Best Damn Team in Baseball. Grich put up close to an 1.100 OPS in 900 ABs for Rochester, while Baylor had a thousand ABs of .990 OPS offense, and yet it still took both of them a couple three years before they were full time starters for the big league club. This was kind of understandable because Grich was blocked by Davey Johnson, and Baylor was fighting for playing time with Frank Robinson, Merv Rettenmund, and Don Buford. Eventually the Orioles dealt some guys to make room for the hot shot kids, but in hindsight they should have unloaded those vets sooner as they wasted some of G&B's prime years in the minors, or as part-timers in the majors. I hope we don't end up repeating that mistake with Westburg, Cowser, Norby, and Ortiz. 

Should have dealt Frank Robinson sooner?   Last I checked, the O’s went to three WS his final three years with the team.  And didn’t go again until 8 years after he was traded away.  The ‘72 Orioles were nowhere near as good with Frank gone, and missed the playoffs entirely.  

As to Johnson, he was still there in ‘72 but lost a lot of at bats, as did Belanger, so that Grich could bat 513 times.  Then he was gone.  

In short, Baylor and Grich may have spent more time in AAA than they would have with a lesser team, but it didn’t hurt the team one iota.  It wasn’t a “mistake” to keep them in the minors. Those were the greatest teams in Orioles history.   I only hope sone Orioles teams this decade can be mentioned in the same breath as those teams and are in position to make those kind of “mistakes.”

 

[owknows]

9 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Should have dealt Frank Robinson sooner?   Last I checked, the O’s went to three WS his final three years with the team.  And didn’t go again until 8 years after he was traded away.  The ‘72 Orioles were nowhere near as good with Frank gone, and missed the playoffs entirely.  

As to Johnson, he was still there in ‘72 but lost a lot of at bats, as did Belanger, so that Grich could bat 513 times.  Then he was gone.  

In short, Baylor and Grich may have spent more time in AAA than they would have with a lesser team, but it didn’t hurt the team one iota.  It wasn’t a “mistake” to keep them in the minors. Those were the greatest teams in Orioles history.   I only hope sone Orioles teams this decade can be mentioned in the same breath as those teams and are in position to make those kind of “mistakes.”

 

Perhaps they shouldn't have dealt Robinson at all. The team did of course have other outfielders. No reason to assume that Frank should have been traded at all, much less the one traded to make room for Baylor.

But that doesn't mitigate the point that two really good baseball players stagnated in AAA. And that it obviously hurt those players.

You can argue that it didn't hurt the team... but the team could have extracted trade value out of either those players (Grich and Baylor) or out of major league players who were impeding their progression. And re-invigorated the lower minors. Possibly extending their dynasty in the process.

You can argue that this is 20/20 hindsight. Maybe it is. But one of the few positives that come out of mistakes is the ability to learn from them by retrospective analysis.

The 23 Orioles have a similar situation unfolding. They accumulated a surplus of major league ready talent in the middle infield that is clogging the pipes. They amplified that problem by acquiring a free agent middle infielder who they feel compelled to play. They would have already needed to trade several of the players in question before that acquisition. Now they've placed themselves is a situation where they'll have to make trade decisions without even having the chance to determine which of these players is most MLB ready because there's nowhere to play them.

I expected more foresight from the front office. This is one of my few criticisms of them.

And in case it isn't obvious... we'll be having the same discussion vis a vis the outfield in a couple years.

Are these generally good problems to have? Sure... but ultimately you have to protect the equity you've built by making good decisions if you want to continue in perpetuity.

[ShoelesJoe]

23 minutes ago, Frobby said:

In short, Baylor and Grich may have spent more time in AAA than they would have with a lesser team, but it didn’t hurt the team one iota.  
 

It didn't hurt the team in the short run, but very well could have hurt it in the long run, and also probably hurt Grich and Baylor's early development. The '71 team won the division by 12 games, while the '72 team finished 5 games out of first. It's not a leap to believe that giving G&B significant playing time in '71 would have probably cost them a few games in a season where they won the division going away, but would have led to a few more wins the next year when they fell just short of winning it. 

[orioles22]

5 hours ago, ShoelesJoe said:

I know I'm dating myself, but the current situation reminds me of the early '70s when we had Bobby Grich and Don Baylor blowing up AAA, and yet we couldn't find room for them on The Best Damn Team in Baseball. Grich put up close to an 1.100 OPS in 900 ABs for Rochester, while Baylor had a thousand ABs of .990 OPS offense, and yet it still took both of them a couple three years before they were full time starters for the big league club. This was kind of understandable because Grich was blocked by Davey Johnson, and Baylor was fighting for playing time with Frank Robinson, Merv Rettenmund, and Don Buford. Eventually the Orioles dealt some guys to make room for the hot shot kids, but in hindsight they should have unloaded those vets sooner as they wasted some of G&B's prime years in the minors, or as part-timers in the majors. I hope we don't end up repeating that mistake with Westburg, Cowser, Norby, and Ortiz. 

I always bring that up when someone has played well for a month and fans come up with the "they have nothing left to prove" argument. I think Westburg is the only one of the four who may have stayed too long in AAA. I don't think it hurts to keep the others there for a year at Norfolk, or at least most of one.

I've thought Westburg was the guy to trade for pitching, but now I'm thinking maybe we make him our third baseman if Gunnar could bring back a top-flight young starter and maybe another pitching prospect. We need pitching, and we have a glut of infielders.

[Bemorewins]

2 hours ago, orioles22 said:

I always bring that up when someone has played well for a month and fans come up with the "they have nothing left to prove" argument. I think Westburg is the only one of the four who may have stayed too long in AAA. I don't think it hurts to keep the others there for a year at Norfolk, or at least most of one.

I've thought Westburg was the guy to trade for pitching, but now I'm thinking maybe we make him our third baseman if Gunnar could bring back a top-flight young starter and maybe another pitching prospect. We need pitching, and we have a glut of infielders.

This is an interesting post.

First, let me say that I agree that it is time to make a decision about Westburg (and who knows maybe they already have). We can’t make any trades until the Summer though. If they have made a decision to trade him, Gunnar, Ortiz, Norby, etc; then they are doing the right thing by leaving all where they are, none of the AAA guys can hurt their value while crushing it in AAA.

Know I don’t agree with just allowing Westburg to come up and leaving the others in AAA for the whole year. IMO that would be a gross mismanagement of assets. Not only is Westburg ready but so is Cowser and Ortiz. By the way, Ortiz will be 25 this year. He will most certainly lose prospect value next year entering his aged 26 season. You don’t see 26 year old prospect for a reason. Because now we are no longer talking about projection, but prime/peak years.

I believe that there is easily a spot on the team for Cowser. But only one for Ortiz/Westburg/Norby. The excess will have to be moved. And should be as part of a package for pitching.

Now, lastly, while his early season struggles have not dissuaded me about his talent, as almost all young players struggle making a transition to the show including Adley and JRod. I will say that even Gunnar Henderson is replaceable with the abundance of talent that we have within the org. We have a similarly profiled player in Jackson Holiday who is behind him.

If Gunnar is the only way for us to get an ELITE Major League starting pitcher then you have to consider it. I know that some people don’t want to consider it and maybe Elias didn’t expect it, but our window for championship contention has now opened. It would be irresponsible to manage this season in any other way. With all the injuries that the Yanks have suffered and with the deGrom injury, it’s hard for me to envision a scenario where either team finishes in front of us. There are very high odds now that we will make the playoffs. We should be positioning ourselves to win once we get there.

[LookinUp]

For those complaining about how long he and others are in the minors, all I can say is that they have the service time rules for a reason. You can't keep them there forever, but Elias will certainly maximize control within those rules.

I'm not saying that's the right thing to do, and the Frazier signing still makes zero sense to me, but I do agree that Elias is maximizing control, and thus value, of young talent over time.