Cole Irvin 2023

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

40 minutes ago, baltfan said:

Really happy with this development.  I assumed that because Elias had made this trade he might have a bit of ego and been boneheaded about sending him down.  But, as bad as the starters beside Gibson have been, he has been the worst.  Send him down and let him figure it out. 

Looks like the Rougned Odor extra long leash of patience no longer applies to this year's team and I welcome it.

[wildcard]

7 hours ago, O's84 said:

Somewhere wildcard is celebrating

No, not really.   I said he was the O's 7th best starter when he was acquired.  But I don't want to see him pitch poorly.   He is still starter depth.

Bradish pitches tonight at Bowie.  He will take the 5th starter spot if he shows he is ready.   This should be a wake up call for Irvin and Kremer.   They have to pitch better to stay in the majors.

[wildcard]

7 hours ago, Frobby said:

Well, his predictions for Kremer and several others aren’t looking too good, so maybe not.   Hopefully several of the starters will pull things together soon.  This has been painful.  

Kremer will right himself at some point.   He has the pitches.  Either he straighten up or he too will go to AAA for a while.   But overall Kremer is a major league starter and will find his command.

Wells and Gibson look good.   GRod will learn on the job and has a high ceiling.  Bradish just has to get healthy.

[wildcard]

5 hours ago, Spy Fox said:

Irvin will be back and hopefully back better. This made sense as he clearly looked the worst of all the SPs so far and had just pitched. 

What I don't get is why Cano is one of the folks coming up. Hopefully he makes them look smart. 

Its was Krehbiel or Cano.   They must like the way Cano is pitching right now.

[Bemorewins]

To those pointing to Irvin’s career walk numbers as to a reason he can be successful, I would assert this as a counterpoint - One of the reasons he has not been successful and why he has been walking many more batters is that has been afraid to challenge guys because he lacks confidence in his stuff right now. I believe that was clear from his very first start in Boston. He has been pitching afraid especially against right handed power bats of their contact. And it seems to get worse with men on base. 
 

He may bounce back (I truly hope he does), but I’m really concerned about the quality of his stuff in this division. 
 

I can see a path for Kremer to figure it out (he has the stuff) and definitely Grayson (he has tremendous stuff just needs better command of the fastball and throw at least 1 offspeed consistently for strikes). Irvin on the other hand, has a MUCH SMALLER margin for error given the stuff/talent that he brings to the table. He cannot survive as a passable starting pitching in this division without GREAT command.

[Aristotelian]

6 hours ago, baltfan said:

Really happy with this development.  I assumed that because Elias had made this trade he might have a bit of ego and been boneheaded about sending him down.  But, as bad as the starters beside Gibson have been, he has been the worst.  Send him down and let him figure it out. 

+1, good move and somewhat of a surprise. Small signal that Elias wants to win now instead of eternally playing the long game.

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

To those pointing to Irvin’s career walk numbers as to a reason he can be successful, I would assert this as a counterpoint - One of the reasons he has not been successful and why he has been walking many more batters is that has been afraid to challenge guys because he lacks confidence in his stuff right now. I believe that was clear from his very first start in Boston. He has been pitching afraid especially against right handed power bats of their contact. And it seems to get worse with men on base. 
 

He may bounce back (I truly hope he does), but I’m really concerned about the quality of his stuff in this division. 
 

I can see a path for Kremer to figure it out (he has the stuff) and definitely Grayson (he has tremendous stuff just needs better command of the fastball and throw at least 1 offspeed consistently for strikes). Irvin on the other hand, has a MUCH SMALLER margin for error given the stuff/talent that he brings to the table. He cannot survive as a passable starting pitching in this division without GREAT command.

Don’t buy it.   His command is off.   

[Bemorewins]

38 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Don’t buy it.   His command is off.   

I hope he can be successful here this season. And I hope that he can find whatever magic formula made him successful pitching at the Oakland Coliseum. I understand the logic in bringing him here to a degree, in that big ballpark to help fly ball pitcher with homer depression. 

However, there has to be a reason to explain his extreme splits between pitching in Oakland vs pitching Everywhere else. Plus, this takes me back to what did Billy Bean know? He seemed quite content to give the guy away. My question the whole time when we acquired him was, why would a lefty pitcher with these stats be valued by the league so low? Admittedly I didn’t know much about him and hadn’t watched much A’s baseball, I think I watched one of his starts last year (randomly). But I think the answers may be clearly after watching him pitch here this season. - His margin for error is really quite thin because of the stuff he carries.

[RZNJ]

10 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I hope he can be successful here this season. And I hope that he can find whatever magic formula made him successful pitching at the Oakland Coliseum. I understand the logic in bringing him here to a degree, in that big ballpark to help fly ball pitcher with homer depression. 

However, there has to be a reason to explain his extreme splits between pitching in Oakland vs pitching Everywhere else. Plus, this takes me back to what did Billy Bean know? He seemed quite content to give the guy away. My question the whole time when we acquired him was, why would a lefty pitcher with these stats be valued by the league so low? Admittedly I didn’t know much about him and hadn’t watched much A’s baseball, I think I watched one of his starts last year (randomly). But I think the answers may be clearly after watching him pitch here this season. - His margin for error is really quite thin because of the stuff he carries.

Billy Bean has made a ton of trades where you would question what he’s getting back.  As recently as the Sean Murphy trade this past winter or going back to Josh Donaldson.   As for Irvin, no doubt he was better at home last year but was he afraid to throw strikes away from the cavernous Colliseum?   14 walks in 75 innings on the road last year with a 5+ ERA.  That’s why I don’t buy your theory.

[Bemorewins]

Additionally, I believe that MLB’s rule changes this season to increase offense will do just that! And I don’t think we’ve even begun to see the full effects yet. As hitters realize that they don’t have to be the overly focused on hitting balls in the air every time up and that they can get hits/on base more by simply putting the ball in play, even on the ground; there will be more base runners and thus more runs scored.

If this theory is true, that means that gimmicky things like extreme shifts helped to artificially inflate certain pitchers (maybe all to a degree). For a guy like Irvin, who had a smaller margin for success to work with, maybe adding additional base runners is something that tilts the scales too far against him succeeding?

Could be spitballing here, and as was suggested it is simply an issue of command? But maybe not?

I can clearly see command issues hindering a guy like Grayson for being successful. But because of his tremendous stuff he does not need great command all the time to succeed, just good to decent command because of his pitch arsenal, velo, etc. For a guy like Irvin, who has marginal stuff to begin w, he needs a LOT MORE to go in his favor like ballpark factors, level of competition, extreme shifts, etc to be successful.

[wildcard]

4 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Billy Bean has made a ton of trades where you would question what he’s getting back.  As recently as the Sean Murphy trade this past winter or going back to Josh Donaldson.   As for Irvin, no doubt he was better at home last year but was he afraid to throw strikes away from the cavernous Colliseum?   14 walks in 75 innings on the road last year with a 5+ ERA.  That’s why I don’t buy your theory.

So Irvin was no afraid to throw strikes on the road.  He was just not effective on the road.

[Bemorewins]

5 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Billy Bean has made a ton of trades where you would question what he’s getting back.  As recently as the Sean Murphy trade this past winter or going back to Josh Donaldson.   As for Irvin, no doubt he was better at home last year but was he afraid to throw strikes away from the cavernous Colliseum?   14 walks in 75 innings on the road last year with a 5+ ERA.  That’s why I don’t buy your theory.

Understood. All valid points. 
 

Let me ask you - What do you believe that it is/was about him that produced such dramatic difference between in results between pitching at the Oakland Coliseum and everywhere else?

I admit, I may be spitballing for answers. But there has to be a legit reason.

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, Bemorewins said:

Understood. All valid points. 
 

Let me ask you - What do you believe that it is/was about him that produced such dramatic difference between in results between pitching at the Oakland Coliseum and everywhere else?

I admit, I may be spitballing for answers. But there has to be a legit reason.

The obvious is that Oakland is a pitchers ballpark.  The ball doesn’t carry at night and you’ve got all of that foul territory to have foul pops caught that would be in the stands of any other ballpark.

[RZNJ]

6 minutes ago, wildcard said:

So Irvin was no afraid to throw strikes on the road.  He was just not effective on the road.

This is correct.

[Matt Bennett]

Love the move, love the aggression. Who cares if you are a vet. Perform or get the hell off my team. 

I am such a broken record to anyone I talk to about the O’s but I can’t get over how they filled their rotation spots over the off-season. Fans, analysts, twitter, management...all knew we needed 2 rotation additions. Accidentally winning 83 games 2022 while trying to tank. No money on the payroll, thin on pitching prospects. A deep, solid lineup. No glaring significant holes elsewhere (improvements can be had of course, but no gaping holes). The fact they filled those spots with Kyle Gibson (94 career ERA+) and Cole Irvin (87 career ERA+) just showed how unserious management/ownership is about winning. I'm glad Gibson has looked good so far but we all know what he is.

I can hardly watch the O's without getting mad at this sabotage.