AL team to watch: White Sox

[Bemorewins]

15 minutes ago, EddeeEddee said:

Yeah I pretty much agree with you, but you have to be realistic when you consider who owns this team.  Still, a trade for Cease or someone like him could fall through for reasons outside of the Orioles' control, which could push them to go for a rental type instead.  Maybe even more important, if the O's are still playing this well a month or two from now and the young starters have improved, then there will be less urgency to add any starter right now, other than Means.  But I agree with you they should work to acquire one in any case before the season ends, preferably someone longer term. 

First I don't think the awful ownership even cares or knows enough about any trades to weigh in. The evil Angelos strikes me as one only concerned about money and status. So I think Elias is free to make any trade without outside interference unless it would cost the ownership major coin, which none of these guys would.

I don't know what to say to the "what if young starters improve" piece? Except that they could experience an improved performance against lesser competition during spurts of the season, like we have seen already this year. But I just don't believe in the talent, unless we are talking about Grayson. I don't think Bradish, Kremer and definitely not Gibson are that good. Wells is adequate, but I would prefer that we not throw him in any games 1-3 in a postseason series unless it's in relief. In that scenario, the other team is liable to have a more talented/better pitcher on the mound. 

[HandsomeQuack]

7 minutes ago, oriolediehard said:

Here are possible White Sox trades:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/05/which-players-could-white-sox-make-available-closer-to-the-trade-deadline.html

Giolito would be a nice add, depending on the cost. I know he's not "TOR," but who will even be available in that group (other than Cease, arguably)?

Regarding Miami, the SP over whom they have the least control is Luzardo, and he's not a FA until 2027. Alcantara, Luzardo, and Cabrera are all future pieces, not trade chips. Unless there is some indication that one or more of their guys will be made available, the Marlins SPs aren't even worth discussing.

[Bemorewins]

Let me ask something to posters who are extremely hesitant to buy in to the notion of big time talent acquisition via the route of trade (given that our ownership has shown no interest in investing serious dollars into the team and allowing us to explore FA in a serious way):

Where does the notion that we can some how ruin or in any way alter the teams future success with any one trade come from?

I struggle to understand the rationale behind that idea. We currently have NINE top 100 prospects. 7 are position players and 2 are pitcher. And the highest one who is a pitcher is getting ready to graduate off of the list and soon be replaced by another position player. That will still be count them NINE players on the top 100 prospect list and 8 of them are position players.

There are ONLY 2 teams in the ENTIRE sport who even have 7 players on the list. That's right... TWO TEAMS. 

A player as incredible as Juan Soto fetched an incredible haul last year that included 3 top 100 players. Maybe it was 4?

If we trade 3 to 4 top 100 players (and I don't see any player available as good, accomplished, and young as Soto was) we will still have between 5-7 top 100 prospects left. Which is still more or as much as ANY OTHER TEAM in the sport.

[Bemorewins]

7 minutes ago, HandsomeQuack said:

Giolito would be a nice add, depending on the cost. I know he's not "TOR," but who will even be available in that group (other than Cease, arguably)?

Regarding Miami, the SP over whom they have the least control is Luzardo, and he's not a FA until 2027. Alcantara, Luzardo, and Cabrera are all future pieces, not trade chips. Unless there is some indication that one or more of their guys will be made available, the Marlins SPs aren't even worth discussing.

I would want Luzardo way before I would want Giolito. Lucas Giolito is not the kind of pitcher I want starting in a Game 1 or 2 of a post season series.

If Giolito is all we can do, I would rather do nothing or try for Eduardo Rodriguez.

[HandsomeQuack]

Just now, Bemorewins said:

I would want Luzardo way before I would want Giolito. Lucas Giolito is not the kind of pitcher I want starting in a Game 1 or 2 of a post season series.

If Giolito is all we can do, I would rather do nothing or try for Eduardo Rodriguez.

Yes, we all want Luzardo, but we're not getting Luzardo, so it's a moot point. Maybe we should call Atlanta about Spencer Strider?

Personally, I don't see much of a difference between Giolito and E-Rod, but if you strongly prefer E-Rod that's fair enough.

[Aristotelian]

6 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Let me ask something to posters who are extremely hesitant to buy in to the notion of big time talent acquisition via the route of trade (given that our ownership has shown no interest in investing serious dollars into the team and allowing us to explore FA in a serious way):

Where does the notion that we can some how ruin or in any way alter the teams future success with any one trade come from?

I struggle to understand the rationale behind that idea. We currently have NINE top 100 prospects. 7 are position players and 2 are pitcher. And the highest one who is a pitcher is getting ready to graduate off of the list and soon be replaced by another position player. That will still be count them NINE players on the top 100 prospect list and 8 of them are position players.

There are ONLY 2 teams in the ENTIRE sport who even have 7 players on the list. That's right... TWO TEAMS. 

A player as incredible as Juan Soto fetched an incredible haul last year that included 3 top 100 players. Maybe it was 4?

If we trade 3 to 4 top 100 players (and I don't see any player available as good, accomplished, and young as Soto was) we will still have between 5-7 top 100 prospects left. Which is still more or as much as ANY OTHER TEAM in the sport.

Just playing devil's advocate here, because I am not opposed to a Big Trade, but the Glenn Davis trade is the downside case. Seemed like a good idea at the time, but we picked the wrong player, misjudged the window, and underrated our own talent. We did recover by '96 but the opportunity cost was huge. 

[Bemorewins]

6 minutes ago, HandsomeQuack said:

Yes, we all want Luzardo, but we're not getting Luzardo, so it's a moot point. Maybe we should call Atlanta about Spencer Strider?

Personally, I don't see much of a difference between Giolito and E-Rod, but if you strongly prefer E-Rod that's fair enough.

First Eduardo is off to a great start this year. Second, the best season that both of them had was in 2019. Look at the difference between the two. Third, Eduardo is left handed, that's a bonus for me because we don't have one.

Now after having said all that, I sincerely hope that we can do better than both. As I don't really want either. 

As we go along toward the Summer, things will become clearer. I refuse to believe that these two will be the best on the market. I don't see why the CHI Sox wouldn't put Cease on the table for 3 top 100 prospects plus 2 more. Heck even in Luzardo's case, MIA is not going anywhere and devoid of position talent, while having top 100 100 pitchers including one who is top 10. They are going to need to make room for the youngsters while adding positional talent to their roster.

[EddeeEddee]

4 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

First I don't think the awful ownership even cares or knows enough about any trades to weigh in. The evil Angelos strikes me as one only concerned about money and status. So I think Elias is free to make any trade without outside interference unless it would cost the ownership major coin, which none of these guys would.

I don't know what to say to the "what if young starters improve" piece? Except that they could experience an improved performance against lesser competition during spurts of the season, like we have seen already this year. But I just don't believe in the talent, unless we are talking about Grayson. I don't think Bradish, Kremer and definitely not Gibson are that good. Wells is adequate, but I would prefer that we not throw him in any games 1-3 in a postseason series unless it's in relief. In that scenario, the other team is liable to have a more talented/better pitcher on the mound. 

I think just about everyone is on the same page as you.  I'm no expert but just saying how difficult it could be to get the perfect young arm in a trade.  A rental starting pitcher is usually the best most teams can do.  Trading for a young, elite, low-cost proven MLB starter is difficult to imagine without giving up someone we really don't want to part with.  If I'm the White Sox FO and everyone is calling me about Cease, I'm going to ask for the moon.  

[EddeeEddee]

4 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

First I don't think the awful ownership even cares or knows enough about any trades to weigh in. The evil Angelos strikes me as one only concerned about money and status. So I think Elias is free to make any trade without outside interference unless it would cost the ownership major coin, which none of these guys would.

I don't know what to say to the "what if young starters improve" piece? Except that they could experience an improved performance against lesser competition during spurts of the season, like we have seen already this year. But I just don't believe in the talent, unless we are talking about Grayson. I don't think Bradish, Kremer and definitely not Gibson are that good. Wells is adequate, but I would prefer that we not throw him in any games 1-3 in a postseason series unless it's in relief. In that scenario, the other team is liable to have a more talented/better pitcher on the mound. 

I think just about everyone is on the same page as you.  I'm no expert but just saying how difficult it could be to get the perfect young arm in a trade.  A rental starting pitcher is usually the best most teams can do.  Trading for a young, elite, low-cost proven MLB starter is difficult to imagine without giving up someone we really don't want to part with.  If I'm the White Sox FO and everyone is calling me about Cease, I'm going to ask for the moon.  

[sportsfan8703]

Just now, EddeeEddee said:

I think just about everyone is on the same page as you.  I'm no expert but just saying how difficult it could be to get the perfect young arm in a trade.  A rental starting pitcher is usually the best most teams can do.  Trading for a young, elite, low-cost proven MLB starter is difficult to imagine without giving up someone we really don't want to part with.  If I'm the White Sox FO and everyone is calling me about Cease, I'm going to ask for the moon.  

We’re just a different organization now. We could get Cease in here and improve him. 
 

I definitely buy into striking while the iron is hot. Next year is not guaranteed. Who knows what injuries could happen?  Coaches and members of the FO could leave. 
 

Remember it was DD flirting with the Toronto job and our pitching coach leaving that really hurt our last run. Machado injury. Davis PED suspension.  Nobody could’ve predicted those. 

[Bemorewins]

2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Just playing devil's advocate here, because I am not opposed to a Big Trade, but the Glenn Davis trade is the downside case. Seemed like a good idea at the time, but we picked the wrong player, misjudged the window, and underrated our own talent. We did recover by '96 but the opportunity cost was huge. 

Yes that is one of the worst trades in sports history!

But that happened A LONG TIME ago and the org had nowhere near the talent that it has now. Again, someone show me any historical example in the last 50/60 years in the game, where a team could graduate a #1 prospect, then by the very next season have TWO top 5-7sih prospects including another #1 prospect, then by the next season have another #1 prospect, while currently having NINE tope 100 prospects and a Major League team with one of the top records in the sport at the time. This is unprecedented! 

No disrespect to the 91' O's. But it's not even an Apples to Oranges comparison in terms of org situations. It's like peas to pizza with comparing the two.

[Bemorewins]

4 minutes ago, EddeeEddee said:

I think just about everyone is on the same page as you.  I'm no expert but just saying how difficult it could be to get the perfect young arm in a trade.  A rental starting pitcher is usually the best most teams can do.  Trading for a young, elite, low-cost proven MLB starter is difficult to imagine without giving up someone we really don't want to part with.  If I'm the White Sox FO and everyone is calling me about Cease, I'm going to ask for the moon.  

Whatever "the moon" is. We can afford it and outbid everyone. No one has the type of org talent that we have. As I mentioned, we could give them 3/4 top 100 guys, a major league guy, and a high ceilinged A guy or 16 year old Dominican. Or whatever and it wouldn't even be a speed bump for us. When you are this rich, you can't go broke! Just ask Bezos or Gates. There is nothing that they can buy that would hurt them or threaten them. That's how prospect rich the Baltimore Orioles are. 

[EddeeEddee]

4 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Whatever "the moon" is. We can afford it and outbid everyone. No one has the type of org talent that we have. As I mentioned, we could give them 3/4 top 100 guys, a major league guy, and a high ceilinged A guy or 16 year old Dominican. Or whatever and it wouldn't even be a speed bump for us. When you are this rich, you can't go broke! Just ask Bezos or Gates. There is nothing that they can buy that would hurt them or threaten them. That's how prospect rich the Baltimore Orioles are. 

I may be wrong but I believe the moon the WS will want in a trade would be something like Gunnar Henderson, Jackson Holliday, DL Hall and maybe someone like Basallo.  Is that haul worth it for Dylan Cease?  Does he get us to the promised land more than a cheaper option?  Why do I think the White Sox would ask for that much?  Because, as others are saying here, there is no other young, low-cost elite pitcher available -- and there is no pressure for them to trade him.  They have him for 2+ more years.  Unless he is mediocre to terrible the next couple of months, everyone will be calling the White Sox for him (unless there is another low-cost elite starter made available that no one here has thought of yet).  And even if he doesn't pitch well the next month or two the WS may refuse to sell low on him.  I think most teams trade for "rentals" for this reason.  Who trades highly rated, young, low-cost starting pitchers under control for 2 more years without getting a haul?  Especially when the team is selling rather than buying?  The White Sox are not under pressure to trade yet, making them more likely to ask for a haul that is a "this elite young pitcher is not available to trade unless you overpay" kind of haul.  

[EddeeEddee]

29 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Whatever "the moon" is. We can afford it and outbid everyone. No one has the type of org talent that we have. As I mentioned, we could give them 3/4 top 100 guys, a major league guy, and a high ceilinged A guy or 16 year old Dominican. Or whatever and it wouldn't even be a speed bump for us. When you are this rich, you can't go broke! Just ask Bezos or Gates. There is nothing that they can buy that would hurt them or threaten them. That's how prospect rich the Baltimore Orioles are. 

Another option the O's could do is try to trade for a highly paid elite veteran starter like Houston did when they traded for Verlander, but it's hard to imagine the O's taking on that kind of money.  And not sure who might be available along those lines this season.

[Bemorewins]

Is this serious or hyperbole?

The CHI Sox couldn’t get Gunnar or Holiday alone or any equivalent from another team, let alone BOTH!  Come on now, let’s be serious. Ohtani or Aaron Judge couldn’t command the type of package you are suggesting. 

What trade have you EVER heard of where one team gives up two top ten prospects in the game? One who was #1 and the other will be #2 at the end of this year:

Now let’s try that one again with a little more realism…