Ohtani Rental?

[Fan4Life]

1 hour ago, cboemmeljr said:

For what it's worth, here's my opinion.

While I feel for Artie Moreno who is caught between a rock and a hard place because if he loses Ohtani to free agency, he has nothing but if he approves a trade and Ohtani gets a ring as a rental or even if he doesn't get one, his legacy will be known as the owner who traded Ohtani away.

Any trade for Shohei must include a window to negotiate a new deal.  I wonder though, is Ohtani's talent so great at present that he is too expensive an acquisition, even for Uncle Stevie?

Ohtani chose the Angels and the west coast over the east cost so even though the marketing value in New York, especially, is huge, does he want that pressure.

As for the Orioles going all in in a trade is am a HARD NO.  I don't think that three prospects will be enough.  I personally feel that making the trade would undo much of what has been done over the past few years.  Making the trade does not and will not guarantee a ring, especially this year.

I am in now way comparing Shohei to Chris Davis in ANY way baseball wise, but that contract affected the Orioles financially with future payments so we could be on the hook for years to come if the estimates/speculation of what it will cost to get Ohtani in FA.  Keep in mind that we are on the hook to a small degree for Bobby Bonilla day; yes we pay him something each year, although I don't know the amount.

I'm more in line with what I heard on the broadcast yesterday, if the Angels can't resign him, trade him. If they play to resign him, trade him and resign him in the offseason.

[ChosenOne21]

13 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Do the reverse:  if we had Ohtani and another team called offering us that package, what would your reaction be?

I already said I wouldn't take it, but I wouldn't hang up the phone laughing either. As the Angels I'm pretty much out of contention with holes everywhere and that gets me two top-100, basically MLB ready, prospects and a until recently very highly thought of (former top-100) pitcher.

Yes, it's Ohtani, but it's also 2.5-3.5 months of Ohtani before he walks without compensation. If the Angels think they're doing significantly better than that, they'd better hope they get really hot and make the playoffs.

Edited July 17, 2023 by ChosenOne21

[Bemorewins]

7 minutes ago, drdelaware said:

If the O's decided to give up the farm for him (they won't) they'd lose the flexibility at the DH position.  Might seem like nothing but with a loaded roster having the DH spot for AB's available more than once a week is no small issue.

Why would you ever want anyone in baseball especially on the Orioles (maybe Judge or Ocuna Jr excluded) getting ABs instead of Ohtani?

I am not in the trade for Ohtani camp but come on let's be real. Ohtani is BY FAR and I mean a good distance BETTER than ANY hitter or pitcher that we have.

[Just Regular]

The hitting is part of the fun too.   Some of the banter here around Goldschmidt is very positive, and Ohtani is that too.

I don't believe the extension window is practical - he's someone who while leaving oodles of money on the table to play in the world's best league at a younger age got about 29 presentations.

Of course like the Rays, we have virtually zero chance at forever, but these couple months are like a semester abroad in college.    I'm not even super interested for our future rosters....there are other priorities for 9-figure contracts, but wow would he be nice this summer.

A scenario like this (and could be Snell, Scherzer, Bednar, anybody) is an example why in Talent Accumulation phase you don't worry about redundancy.     Deployment time is here.

[banks703]

2 hours ago, Orioles Jim said:

 

 

It could be a foolish all-in on the O's side given what it would likely require but Ohtani is legitimately the only player in baseball (maybe EVER) that could singlehandedly propel a team like the Orioles from being good to World Series favorite. Ohtani could do that for the O's, instantly. Where have they struggled at times this year the most?  

 

Inserting Ohtani into the current rotation:

Ohtani

Wells

Braddish

Kremer

GrayRod

 

This keeps Irvin in the pen, though I would think that the Angels would want a starter back for Ohtani so maybe Irvin is that guy but I would try to pawn off Gibson to offset money, even if it meant increasing the quality of prospects/players. 

 

They could also keep Irvin in the rotation if he continues to pitch well and move Wells to limit his innings. Even though they've said that he has no restrictions this year they are already pushing back his starts coming out of the break to limit his number of times through the rotation in the second half. They could even let Wells continue starting until Meansy returns then put Wells in the pen. Adding Wells to a backend that already includes Cano and Bautista would be extremely formidable. 

 

If you could get them to take Gibson, I would offer Mountcastle instead of Ortiz. I am not motivated to move Mountcastle by any means but if you could get Ohtani for a World Series run for Ryan Mountcastle, you do it. 

 

Gibson/Irvin

Hall (though I don't think they would be over the moon about his inclusion) 

Norby

Mountcastle - With Neto and 3 of their top 7 prospects middle infielders, I'm not sure that Ortiz makes sense FOR them but if they prefer Ortiz to Mountcastle (they don't have a 1B prospect in their top 30) I still do the deal

 

Gibson gives them back a starter who can eat innings for the remainder of the year

Hall was a top 70 or so prospect just two years back 

Norby is a current top 70 guy 

Mountcastle is a former top 70 guy 

 

Go from here and see what else they want but I would think that the above players/prospects would be competitive with what any other team would offer. Mountcastle may need a change of scenery already but he is cost-controlled, has been productive and still young enough to be part of any team's next core. I don' think that I would include BOTH Ortiz AND Norby. I'd make them chose one or the other. 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by banks703

[clapdiddy]

5 minutes ago, banks703 said:

 

 

It could be a foolish all-in on the O's side given what it would likely require but Ohtani is legitimately the only player in baseball (maybe EVER) that could singlehandedly propel a team like the Orioles from being good to World Series favorite. Ohtani could do that for the O's, instantly. Where have they struggled at times this year the most?  

 

Inserting Ohtani into the current rotation:

Ohtani

Wells

Braddish

Kremer

GrayRod

 

This keeps Irvin in the pen, though I would think that the Angels would want a starter back for Ohtani so maybe Irvin is that guy but I would try to pawn off Gibson to offset money, even if it meant increasing the quality of prospects/players. 

 

They could also keep Irvin in the rotation if he continues to pitch well and move Wells to limit his innings. Even though they've said that he has no restrictions this year they are already pushing back his starts coming out of the break to limit his number of times through the rotation in the second half. They could even let Wells continue starting until Meansy returns then put Wells in the pen. Adding Wells to a backend that already includes Cano and Bautista would be extremely formidable. 

 

If you could get them to take Gibson, I would offer Mountcastle instead of Ortiz. I am not motivated to move Mountcastle by any means but if you could get Ohtani for a World Series run for Ryan Mountcastle, you do it. 

 

Gibson/Irvin

Hall (though I don't think they would be over the moon about his inclusion) 

Norby

Mountcastle - With Neto and 3 of their top 7 prospects middle infielders, I'm not sure that Ortiz makes sense FOR them but if they prefer Ortiz to Mountcastle (they don't have a 1B prospect in their top 30) I still do the deal

 

Gibson/Irvin 

Norby

Hall

Mountcastle/Ortiz

 

Gibson gives them back a starter who can eat innings for the remainder of the year

Hall was a top 70 or so prospect just two years back 

Norby is a current top 70 guy 

Mountcastle is a former top 70 guy 

 

 

 

 

I like the idea, but I don't think Gibson/Irvin and/or Mountcastle are much of a "sweetener" to a deal.

Edited July 17, 2023 by clapdiddy

[Bemorewins]

7 minutes ago, banks703 said:

 

 

It could be a foolish all-in on the O's side given what it would likely require but Ohtani is legitimately the only player in baseball (maybe EVER) that could singlehandedly propel a team like the Orioles from being good to World Series favorite. Ohtani could do that for the O's, instantly. Where have they struggled at times this year the most?  

 

Inserting Ohtani into the current rotation:

Ohtani

Wells

Braddish

Kremer

GrayRod

 

This keeps Irvin in the pen, though I would think that the Angels would want a starter back for Ohtani so maybe Irvin is that guy but I would try to pawn off Gibson to offset money, even if it meant increasing the quality of prospects/players. 

 

They could also keep Irvin in the rotation if he continues to pitch well and move Wells to limit his innings. Even though they've said that he has no restrictions this year they are already pushing back his starts coming out of the break to limit his number of times through the rotation in the second half. They could even let Wells continue starting until Meansy returns then put Wells in the pen. Adding Wells to a backend that already includes Cano and Bautista would be extremely formidable. 

 

If you could get them to take Gibson, I would offer Mountcastle instead of Ortiz. I am not motivated to move Mountcastle by any means but if you could get Ohtani for a World Series run for Ryan Mountcastle, you do it. 

 

Gibson/Irvin

Hall (though I don't think they would be over the moon about his inclusion) 

Norby

Mountcastle - With Neto and 3 of their top 7 prospects middle infielders, I'm not sure that Ortiz makes sense FOR them but if they prefer Ortiz to Mountcastle (they don't have a 1B prospect in their top 30) I still do the deal

 

Gibson gives them back a starter who can eat innings for the remainder of the year

Hall was a top 70 or so prospect just two years back 

Norby is a current top 70 guy 

Mountcastle is a former top 70 guy 

 

Go from here and see what else they want but I would think that the above players/prospects would be competitive with what any other team would offer. Mountcastle may need a change of scenery already but he is cost-controlled, has been productive and still young enough to be part of any team's next core. I don' think that I would include BOTH Ortiz AND Norby. I'd make them chose one or the other. 

 

 

That's a pipe dream thinking that the Angels will trade Ohtani and take back Kyle Gibson. Can you imagine the heat the org would be under for such a horrible/inequitable exchange? Other than Norby, they would literally be taking all the guys that we don't want. There's no way another team doesn't beat that offer.

If you want to get rid of Kyle Gibson, you would most likely have to give him away by eating salary to a pitching poor team who sees themselves as still in it.

Lastly, I do think Ohtani is absolutely AMAZING and a game changer. But I still don't see a scenario where we face the Braves in the World Series (especially if they are healthy) and we are favorites to beat them. They are still that much more talented than us.

 

[Bemorewins]

8 minutes ago, clapdiddy said:

I like the idea, but I don't think Gibson and/or Mountcastle are much of a "sweetener" to a deal.

IMO they would be negatives. We would have to throw in more legit prospects, good players just to get the Angels to take them.

[gtman55]

I guess I'm weird. I don't want any player where we have to massively overpay for a rental. The Orioles are in this for the long haul and they'll be good for years to come.

[Orioles Jim]

48 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Do the reverse:  if we had Ohtani and another team called offering us that package, what would your reaction be?

That I’d wish we would’ve gotten that kind of return for Machado back in 2018.

[banks703]

5 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

IMO they would be negatives. We would have to throw in more legit prospects, good players just to get the Angels to take them.

Have to look at their current pipeline. They have three middle infielders and a 3B in their top 7. I don't know that they would even want Norby/Ortiz in a deal with the O's but obviously you give them what they want. Mountcastle is a guy that makes sense for them. I don't think that he's someone that the O's don't want. Sure, he's underperformed since his rookie year but the power is obviously there. He could be a classic change of scenery guy. He's still young at 26 and they have ZERO 1B in their top 30. That's not an exaggeration. They currently have soon to be 36 year old Mike friggin Moustakas at 1B. 

They'll need someone to take the innings that would be vacated by Ohtani. If they won't take Gibson/Irvin, maybe they entertain Kremer, though I think dealing from either of the three of Kremer, Braddish or Wells kind of defeats the purpose of acquiring Ohtani as a starter. The upgrade with Ohtani is obvious but Gibson/Irvin remain in the rotation so I don't know that it's a full net gain. 

Is Ohtani a game-changer? Obviously but any team that acquires him is getting a guy who they know is going to explore free agency. The likelihood of NOT re-signing him is going to a factor in what gets moved to acquire him. I don't think that the teams who will be in on him will have the multiple prospects to give to acquire him. 

[interloper]

There's gonna be an awful lot of coping going on when this trade very obviously does not happen. 

I don't begrudge anyone for indulging in some fantasies - I do it all the time. But some folks really seem to think there's a possibility of this occurring. I think if you've followed Elias' moves and mindset over the last 5 years, you understand that this is not even in the remote realm of something he would engage in. 

[banks703]

I just looked back at their top 30.. they are thin in the OF. I would guess that they would ask for one of Cowser/Kjerstad in a deal with the O's. 

 

Gibson

Kjerstad/Cowser

Norby/Ortiz

Mountcastle

 

The sting of giving up the combo of those prospects would be tough. Again, I don't know if they would even want Norby/Ortiz. I mean you can never have too many middle infielders I guess. Mountcastle makes so much sense for them. 

 

I think if they take Gibson, you do some combination of that deal. 

 

 

[FlipTheBird]

8 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Have to look at their current pipeline. They have three middle infielders and a 3B in their top 7. I don't know that they would even want Norby/Ortiz in a deal with the O's but obviously you give them what they want. Mountcastle is a guy that makes sense for them. I don't think that he's someone that the O's don't want. Sure, he's underperformed since his rookie year but the power is obviously there. He could be a classic change of scenery guy. He's still young at 26 and they have ZERO 1B in their top 30. That's not an exaggeration. They currently have soon to be 36 year old Mike friggin Moustakas at 1B. 

They'll need someone to take the innings that would be vacated by Ohtani. If they won't take Gibson/Irvin, maybe they entertain Kremer, though I think dealing from either of the three of Kremer, Braddish or Wells kind of defeats the purpose of acquiring Ohtani as a starter. The upgrade with Ohtani is obvious but Gibson/Irvin remain in the rotation so I don't know that it's a full net gain. 

Is Ohtani a game-changer? Obviously but any team that acquires him is getting a guy who they know is going to explore free agency. The likelihood of NOT re-signing him is going to a factor in what gets moved to acquire him. I don't think that the teams who will be in on him will have the multiple prospects to give to acquire him. 

Life finds a way.

I don't think Ohtani gets dealt at all, but if he does, it's going to be for a heckuva package. Even for a rental. You're getting a TOR starter AND one of the best hitters in baseball in the same trade. He's essentially two different but equally valuable rentals. Guy's going to cost a helluva lot more than the O's spare parts. "Maybe they entertain Kremer" is laughable.

[Bemorewins]

5 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I just looked back at their top 30.. they are thin in the OF. I would guess that they would ask for one of Cowser/Kjerstad in a deal with the O's. 

 

Gibson

Kjerstad/Cowser

Norby/Ortiz

Mountcastle

 

The sting of giving up the combo of those prospects would be tough. Again, I don't know if they would even want Norby/Ortiz. I mean you can never have too many middle infielders I guess. Mountcastle makes so much sense for them. 

 

I think if they take Gibson, you do some combination of that deal. 

 

 

I have no interest in giving away Kjerstad nor Cowser for 2 months of Ohtani.