Ortiz vs Westburg

[Mr-splash]

20 hours ago, Frobby said:

If Ortiz is going to be a starter and has a better glove than Holliday, why wouldn’t you put Ortiz at SS and make Holliday the 2B?

If Holliday has a league average SS glove or higher you put him at SS. There is too much value to be had with a SS who can hit. It's easier to find a 2nd baseman who can hit.

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, Mr-splash said:

If Holliday has a league average SS glove or higher you put him at SS. There is too much value to be had with a SS who can hit. It's easier to find a 2nd baseman who can hit.

The situation I was discussing was the one where Holliday and Ortiz are both starters in our infield.  If that’s the case, the better defender of the two plays SS.  It’s that simple.  I’m not talking about the situation where we find someone else who hits better than Ortiz to play 2B.   

[orioles22]

10 minutes ago, Mr-splash said:

If Holliday has a league average SS glove or higher you put him at SS. There is too much value to be had with a SS who can hit. It's easier to find a 2nd baseman who can hit.

We already have both of them. You don't have to find anyone. If Holliday is league average and Ortiz is better, why not switch them? We'd have two shortstops who can hit, so play the best defender at short.

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The situation I was discussing was the one where Holliday and Ortiz are both starters in our infield.  If that’s the case, the better defender of the two plays SS.  It’s that simple.  I’m not talking about the situation where we find someone else who hits better than Ortiz to play 2B.   

While it could happen, I think it ignores the reality of why Elias took Holliday over Jones. He said that him being a SS was the tipping point.

I don’t think he spent that money and made that pick to put him at second base.

 

[Mr-splash]

19 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The situation I was discussing was the one where Holliday and Ortiz are both starters in our infield.  If that’s the case, the better defender of the two plays SS.  It’s that simple.  I’m not talking about the situation where we find someone else who hits better than Ortiz to play 2B.   

Ok. I understand the distinction. Yes, I agree, the better defender of the two should play SS if they are the only options. But I don't believe they will be our only 2 options in the future.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Mr-splash

[Mr-splash]

15 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

While it could happen, I think it ignores the reality of why Elias took Holliday over Jones. He said that him being a SS was the tipping point.

I don’t think he spent that money and made that pick to put him at second base.

 

I agree. Frobby clarified and said that the better defender should play SS and while I would agree with him if there were no other options at 2B. But I dont want to sacrifice offense under any circumstance if I have SS who can hit. For me personally I cannot turn down a hitting SS.

[Mr-splash]

It's like we have Adley at catcher. We don't have to worry about finding offensive production from the most difficult position on the field. That is a major problem to not have. It's extremely hard to find catchers who can hit. While it is easier to find shortstops who can hit, it's still the 2nd hardest position to find offensive production. If Holliday can play the position well, I cannot turn down that type of offense at SS. You can find people to 2B and hit. It's not easy to find a SS who can hit. 

[Mr-splash]

Ortiz has a 0% walk rate in his small sample size here in the MLB. He has a 7% walk rate at AAA. That's just flat out bad. I don't want that in my lineup everyday if I can avoid that. So if Holliday can play SS, he's gotta play the position. I don't want a guy who can't produce offensively in my lineup. 

[Can_of_corn]

14 minutes ago, Mr-splash said:

Ortiz has a 0% walk rate in his small sample size here in the MLB. He has a 7% walk rate at AAA. That's just flat out bad. I don't want that in my lineup everyday if I can avoid that.

Weren't you just talking up Mateo earlier today?  The guy with a 174 OBP over the last 28 days?

[Jammer7]

It really depends on what is out there in trade offers, and do they get what they believe is fair compensation. If I can only have one, it’s Ortiz. I likely play him at 2B with Holliday at SS in the long term. Westburg, IMO, is likely a fairly athletic 3B or COF long term. He can play SS and 2B, but we have better defenders there, and a lot of them.

Personally, I would keep both and seriously consider Westburg in COF. Hays and Santander are both potentially replaceable with Westburg and Cowser. Westburg has some swing and miss concerns, but I think he can produce at least at Hays’ level, for a lot less money. I am not sure he is capable of being a premium defender in a COF, but I’m not sure Hays is anymore either. 

[Mr-splash]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Weren't you just talking up Mateo earlier today?  The guy with a 174 OBP over the last 28 days?

Mateo is an excellent defensive shortstop. Problem is he cannot hit. If we had a SS in our organization who could hit, I'd calling for Mateo to be traded. Problem is the only player in our organization who can (or projects) to play SS well and hit well at the MLB level is Holliday. H

[Hank Scorpio]

26 minutes ago, Mr-splash said:

Ortiz has a 0% walk rate in his small sample size here in the MLB. He has a 7% walk rate at AAA. That's just flat out bad. I don't want that in my lineup everyday if I can avoid that. So if Holliday can play SS, he's gotta play the position. I don't want a guy who can't produce offensively in my lineup. 

You basically have it right now with Mateo.

PS I don’t know enough about Holliday’s defense to say whether or not he should be starting over Ortiz at SS. I do know that Ortiz has looked superb everywhere he has played defensively.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Hank Scorpio

[Mr-splash]

2 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

You basically have it right now with Mateo.

PS I don’t know enough about Holliday’s defense to say whether or not he should be starting over Ortiz at SS. I do know that Ortiz has looked superb everywhere he has played defensively.

I'm not questioning Ortiz's defensive chops. I'm saying I don't want a weak hitter in my lineup if I can avoid that. What if we had a better defensive catcher than Adley in our organization, but he was a poor hitter? What do you do then? Move Adley to 1B or DH and then have an offensive black hole in your lineup. 

 

Hello, the most important tool is the hit tool. 

[Frobby]

33 minutes ago, Mr-splash said:

I agree. Frobby clarified and said that the better defender should play SS and while I would agree with him if there were no other options at 2B. But I dont want to sacrifice offense under any circumstance if I have SS who can hit. For me personally I cannot turn down a hitting SS.

I’m just waiting to find out how good Ortiz’s offense will be at the major league level, and same for Westburg, whose defense I also need to see.  You already may have stuck Ortiz in the “weak slap hitter” category based on his first 28 PA in the majors, but I’m definitely not ready to jump to that conclusion.  The guy had a .193 ISO in the minors last year, .204 this year, and his exit velocities in AAA have been very good.  So I want to see a lot more than 28 PA in the majors before labeling Ortiz.

As to Westburg, I’ve heard a wide variance of opinion about his defense, and I really want to see that for myself, rather than relying on others’ opinions.  And I want to see how his bat translates in the majors, as well.  He has more power than Ortiz but he may not be the better overall hitter (or, maybe he is).   
 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Mr-splash said:

I'm not questioning Ortiz's defensive chops. I'm saying I don't want a weak hitter in my lineup if I can avoid that. What if we had a better defensive catcher than Adley in our organization, but he was a poor hitter? What do you do then? Move Adley to 1B or DH and then have an offensive black hole in your lineup. 

 

Hello, the most important tool is the hit tool. 

What evidence, like real evidence not SSS bs that shows your inability to understand things, do you have that Ortiz is a light hitter?