Should the Orioles retire Mussina’s number?

[dystopia]

4 minutes ago, accinfo said:

He didn’t choose to go in the HOF as a Yankee.  He choose not to have either team’s logo.

My mistake, still, kind of an FU to the O’s IMO. 

[accinfo]

7 minutes ago, dystopia said:

My mistake, still, kind of an FU to the O’s IMO. 

He grew up a Yankee fan and played for them.  I don’t see how that is a FU to the Orioles. It was respect to both franchises.  

[foxfield]

45 minutes ago, dystopia said:

I’m sorry did you just say Mike Mussina “may be the best ever” with a straight face? If so you’ve had too many hits on the crack pipe. 

I am speaking of Orioles.  I will make the edit.  And add that I don't necessarily think Moose is better than Palmer, but from a purely statistical point you can make that argument.  I think by the post, it's clear I am not.

[Frobby]

21 hours ago, Rbiggs2525 said:

No to retiring his number. To me you have to be a generational player and part of championship team.

Every team has its own standards.  The Yankees have retired plenty of numbers of guys who weren’t “generational players.”

I think flexibility is required.  Should the Cubs not have retired Ernie Banks’ number because the Cubs never won a championship while he played with them?  

So, I’m against having any fixed rules.  But I have no problem being stingy with retired numbers, and not retiring Mussina’s.  
 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Frobby

[dystopia]

9 minutes ago, foxfield said:

I am speaking of Orioles.  I will make the edit.  And add that I don't necessarily think Moose is better than Palmer, but from a purely statistical point you can make that argument.  I think by the post, it's clear I am not.

There is no argument for him being better than Palmer. 

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, dystopia said:

There is no argument for him being better than Palmer. 

Of course there is.  

Mussina: 82.8 rWAR, 81.2 fWAR

Palmer:.68.5 rWAR, 56.6 fWAR

Now, I happen to think they are about equal.  But you can’t say there’s “no argument” that Mussina was better.   
 

[crawjo]

1 hour ago, dystopia said:

Number retirement should be a step above HoF. 

Pretty much no team in baseball thinks this way. Lots of players who never make the Hall of Fame get their numbers retired. I'm pretty sure the Yankees are planning on retiring Ricky Ledee's number next year. 

[dystopia]

38 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Of course there is.  

Mussina: 82.8 rWAR, 81.2 fWAR

Palmer:.68.5 rWAR, 56.6 fWAR

Now, I happen to think they are about equal.  But you can’t say there’s “no argument” that Mussina was better.   
 

He didn’t accumulate all that with the Orioles unlike Palmer. 
 

Mussina’s number is never going to be retired, period. 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, dystopia said:

He didn’t accumulate all that with the Orioles unlike Palmer. 
 

Mussina’s number is never going to be retired, period. 

I never said his number should be retired.   I was just addressing your statement that there is "no argument" that Mussina was better than Palmer.   

[Hallas]

Yes, they should.

 

When Adley retires as an Oriole wearing number 35.

[Roll Tide]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I never said his number should be retired.   I was just addressing your statement that there is "no argument" that Mussina was better than Palmer.   

I don’t …. He went to the Yankees. Not all his fault but he did nevertheless.

[dystopia]

6 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I never said his number should be retired.   I was just addressing your statement that there is "no argument" that Mussina was better than Palmer.   

His career ERA is almost a full run higher than Palmer’s. There’s no reconciling that. 

[Can_of_corn]

53 minutes ago, dystopia said:

His career ERA is almost a full run higher than Palmer’s. There’s no reconciling that. 

Palmer ERA+ 125

Mussina 123

Done.

You have to look at era when looking at ERA.

[dystopia]

9 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Palmer ERA+ 125

Mussina 123

Done.

You have to look at era when looking at ERA.

Mussina hasn’t even won a Cy Young Award. His career ERA is higher than David Cone’s who is not even in the HoF and had an ERA+ of 121. Are we going to compare David Cone’s career to Jim Palmer’s? I doubt many would say that Cone was as good as Palmer. 

[TonySoprano]

 

Retire his number now?  That ship sailed.   If Mussina went anywhere other than NY would there be as much acrimony?   Ed-die couldnt wait to get out of town.

Angelos repeatedly screwed up when dealing with Mussina.  When Mussina wanted a 5 year deal, the Orioles told him we don't give 5 year deals to pitchers.  Mussina signed for 3 years and the next season, Erickson sign a 5 year deal.  Wren negotiated the parameters of a 5 year $60M deal with Mussina in 1999 and presented it to Angelos.   Angelos let it sit on his desk until Mussina's walk year in 2000.   Mussina's price went up.  

Sources very close to the negotiations?  How about Mussina's agent?

The Orioles' highest offer was for $78 million over six years, with $12 million deferred without interest. The Orioles' last contact with Mussina's agent, Arn Tellem, came on Friday, when majority owner Peter Angelos told him the Orioles would not improve their offer.   

Still, Tellem gave Angelos the courtesy of a final phone call, which Mussina had promised to do before signing. But Angelos did not budge, and by Monday, Mussina was in New York for a physical examination and dinner with Torre.

"I still wanted to [give the Orioles the last chance] even though I was disappointed they hadn't called more," Mussina said. "I thought of what it would have taken [for the Orioles] to change my mind, and I couldn't think of anything."

Given the history of the negotiations, Mussina's insistence on giving the Orioles the final bid and the strong impression the Yankees' recruiting efforts made on Mussina, it appears the Orioles lost Mussina more than the Yankees won him, a theory Mussina did not dispute.

"If [the Orioles] really wanted me back," Mussina said, "they would have done more."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/2000/12/01/mussina-joins-yankees/e630f311-c63e-4bf4-8464-df1947d9eabb/?utm_term=.a5298ac5d075

 

Never won 20 games?  GMAB

 

On 8/12/2018 at 8:34 PM, TonySoprano said:

In 1994, Moose needed 4 wins in 10-11 possible starts if the season hadn't ended.  He had 16 wins in 24 GS, so 4 more was certainly in reach.  Mussina didn't make his first start in 1995 until April 26.  Every other month that year he made 6 starts.  With 19 wins in 32 starts, he should've been able to get one more win in the 4 or 5 starts that were cancelled.  Moose needed one win in his last 4 starts in 1996.  After 2 losses and a ND, he looked like he would get win #20 in his final start, surrendering just 1 ER in 8 IP vs. Toronto.  Davey brought in Armando to get the save, and he failed. In May 1998, Mussina suffered a broken nose courtesy of a comebacker from Sandy Alomar, and he was out over 3 weeks.  For the rest of that season, as he told ESPN's Bob Ley, "It was mentally getting over the fear that every ball I threw, every ball that someone made contact with was not coming back at me. " Mussina ended the year with 18 wins.