Discuss Cabrera Here

[Boof]

I think the Cabrerra we see today is the Cabrerra we will always see.

[El Gordo]

I think the Cabrerra we see today is the Cabrerra we will always see.

If Dcab gives up 1 run and 1 BB per 7 innings pitched, for the rest of his career, he will win the Cy Young, every year from now on.

[Flosman]

See, this is where you need to shift your thinking. If you view Cabrera as a guy who COULD and SHOULD be a no. 1-2 starter, he will give you glimpses of that but generally disappoint you and drive you crazy. But if you just look at him as a serviceable no. 4-5 starter/innings eater, he fills that role both well and cheaply.

Here is a list of evey AL pitcher who has more than 60 IP, which therefore excludes all relievers and pitchers who have only a handful of starts. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=al&season=2007&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=60 As you can see, there are 74 of these pitchers -- basically just enough to fill up the 70 roatation spots of the 14 AL teams. And DCab, before tonight, ranked 52nd on that list. So 1-14 are your no. 1's, 15-28 are your no. 2's, 29-42 are your no. 3's, and 43-56 are your no. 4's. Cabrera fits as a no. 4, and he is giving you a ton of innings in that spot. That is not a bad thing to have at all.

Maybe one day Cabrera will fulfill a higher role, but for now he's useful for what he is.

This is exactly how the O's should look at Dcab. Now if some team falls in love with him and wants to pull a couple of prospects off the top shelf then you have to think hard about it. If a team was willing to do a deal centered around DCAB for a player like Young or Upton, etc. The your are giving up your #5 for a potential superstar. If not you have a cheap above average back of the rotation guy that has huge upside.

[Moose Milligan]

&

See, this is where you need to shift your thinking. If you view Cabrera as a guy who COULD and SHOULD be a no. 1-2 starter, he will give you glimpses of that but generally disappoint you and drive you crazy. But if you just look at him as a serviceable no. 4-5 starter/innings eater, he fills that role both well and cheaply.

Here is a list of evey AL pitcher who has more than 60 IP, which therefore excludes all relievers and pitchers who have only a handful of starts. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=al&season=2007&seasonType=2;type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=60 As you can see, there are 74 of these pitchers -- basically just enough to fill up the 70 roatation spots of the 14 AL teams. And DCab, before tonight, ranked 52nd on that list. So 1-14 are your no. 1's, 15-28 are your no. 2's, 29-42 are your no. 3's, and 43-56 are your no. 4's. Cabrera fits as a no. 4, and he is giving you a ton of innings in that spot. That is not a bad thing to have at all.

Maybe one day Cabrera will fulfill a higher role, but for now he's useful for what he is.

Yeah, but everyones miffed and puzzled as to why he can't get it together and be a #1 or 2. You're completely right though, this is how the O's and everyone else should view him...4 or 5.

While this seems to be the most logical and well thought out way to look at CaBBrera, it's also the hardest....

Frankly, I'm still puzzled as to why CaBBrera is still worth discussing. I mean, I know this is a discussion forum and we as fans are here to analyze everything to death....but really, I think that deep down we all know what CaBBrera is and what he'll continue to be.

He'll always tease you with his talent and you'll always wonder why he was never able to put it together and become that #1 or 2 since he's probably got more talent than any 4 or 5 out there.

And time and time again after he has a good to great start there will be threads analyzing him and comparing him to Randy Johnson or JR Richard or some other pitcher that all of a sudden "found it" after a few seasons of being wild.

Yet those pitchers and those stories are few and far between. While I'd like to think that CaBBrera will put it all together someday the fact that he's been inconsistent throughout his career instead of slowly but surely progressing tells me he'll continue to be what he's always been.

[El Gordo]

&

Yeah, but everyones miffed and puzzled as to why he can't get it together and be a #1 or 2. You're completely right though, this is how the O's and everyone else should view him...4 or 5.

While this seems to be the most logical and well thought out way to look at CaBBrera, it's also the hardest....

Frankly, I'm still puzzled as to why CaBBrera is still worth discussing. I mean, I know this is a discussion forum and we as fans are here to analyze everything to death....but really, I think that deep down we all know what CaBBrera is and what he'll continue to be.

He'll always tease you with his talent and you'll always wonder why he was never able to put it together and become that #1 or 2 since he's probably got more talent than any 4 or 5 out there.

And time and time again after he has a good to great start there will be threads analyzing him and comparing him to Randy Johnson or JR Richard or some other pitcher that all of a sudden "found it" after a few seasons of being wild.

Yet those pitchers and those stories are few and far between. While I'd like to think that CaBBrera will put it all together someday the fact that he's been inconsistent throughout his career instead of slowly but surely progressing tells me he'll continue to be what he's always been.

I've been paying close attention to DCabs development. He has backed off both his fast ball and his breaking ball in order to gain more command. He has succeeded, his BB's are down and his innings are up. But as a result he is easier to hit. Ergo less K's and more HR's. Now he has two problems to correct. First, he falls off to the left too much and thus does not come over the top as miuch as he should. This affects his command and the movement on his pitches. It seems to happen more at the beginnings of games, than toward the later innings. Secondly he needs to throw his change up more to set up his "slower" 96 mph fastball. I think he can solve both these problems within the next year and if he does he will be Randy Johnson II.

[RShack]

First, you said this:

Yeah, but everyones miffed and puzzled as to why he can't get it together and be a #1 or 2.

And then you said this:

While I'd like to think that CaBBrera will put it all together someday the fact that he's been inconsistent throughout his career instead of slowly but surely progressing tells me he'll continue to be what he's always been.

You might be right. But it also might be that your first quote explains your second quote.

There are important ways that he *has* been progressing "slowly but surely". But that's not what everybody wants. What everybody wants is NOT "slow but sure" progress. What everybody want is an abrupt "click" that makes him a #1 or #2.

I agree that he's not pitching the way everybody wants him to. But saying he has not made progress is inaccurate. Putting frustration aside, what rational basis is there to conclude that he has reached his peak?

[Moose Milligan]

I've been paying close attention to DCabs development. He has backed off both his fast ball and his breaking ball in order to gain more command. He has succeeded, his BB's are down and his innings are up. But as a result he is easier to hit. Ergo less K's and more HR's. Now he has two problems to correct. First, he falls off to the left too much and thus does not come over the top as miuch as he should. This affects his command and the movement on his pitches. It seems to happen more at the beginnings of games, than toward the later innings. Secondly he needs to throw his change up more to set up his "slower" 96 mph fastball. I think he can solve both these problems within the next year and if he does he will be Randy Johnson II.

Good post.

However I view the fact that he's taking mph off his fastball as a sign of regression.

In other words he doesn't trust his stuff which he should, first and foremost....cause when he's rearing back and letting it rip his stuff is filthy. We talk about Bedard only using his fastball and curve this year and blowing people away...well, there's no reason why that Cabrera couldn't do the same. He certainly has the potential.

I just view it as regression. Why would any pitcher not named Sandy Koufax ease up on his stuff and try to "place" the ball? He's not confident in his control which you can't slap a stat on but IMO it's a huge warning signal that he doesn't have it together mentally. It's a recipe for disaster, you're asking to get hit hard.

[El Gordo]

Good post.

However I view the fact that he's taking mph off his fastball as a sign of regression.

In other words he doesn't trust his stuff which he should, first and foremost....cause when he's rearing back and letting it rip his stuff is filthy. We talk about Bedard only using his fastball and curve this year and blowing people away...well, there's no reason why that Cabrera couldn't do the same. He certainly has the potential.

I just view it as regression. Why would any pitcher not named Sandy Koufax ease up on his stuff and try to "place" the ball? He's not confident in his control which you can't slap a stat on but IMO it's a huge warning signal that he doesn't have it together mentally. It's a recipe for disaster, you're asking to get hit hard.

He's doing this because he is being coached to do this and he is not the same as Bedard; he has mechanics problems to concquer that Bedard doesn't have to deal with. He is a work in progress you just have to have more patience with him, all pitchers don't progres at the same rate. You need to look at his stats since he has been in the ML. http://www.sikids.com/baseball/mlb/players/7325/

[tim27]

We should definintely trade Cabrera in the winter because we have Loewen coming back and we need a rotation spot for Penn because you don't want to waste him as a long reliever if the O's can't get that option. DCab has enough promise left to be able to get or be part of a package to get a young bat for LF or 1B. Hopefully he can have more starts like tonight and raise his value even more.

Dude, you're Cabrera hate is ridiculous. We should trade DCab to open up a rotation spot for Penn? That's hilarious. Penn, the guy who hasn't managed to get his butt on the hill for the last two years is better than Dcab, who's on pace for well over 200 in this year? Get real. I wouldn't worry about "wasting" Penn as a long reliever until he proves he can 1) Stay healthy and 2) Get Major League batters out. And have you seen our middle relief recently? Even if Penn was doing those two things I don't think it be a waste to put an effective arm in in the middle innings as opposed to the slop we're throwing out there now. Next year's rotation should be

Bedard

Guthrie

Loewen

Cabrerra

Olsen

With Burress and Penn in the long-relief roles waiting for the inevitable injury. We finally have developed some depth at starter, you don't trade it off because anybody who has watched more than a month of baseball knows you don't get through a season with 5 or even 6 starters.

[RShack]

However I view the fact that he's taking mph off his fastball as a sign of regression... Why would any pitcher not named Sandy Koufax ease up on his stuff and try to "place" the ball? He's not confident in his control...

Maybe because Koufax says he had the same problem and "taking something off" is what fixed it? Isn't that a good reason to at least try it for a while?

If you don't wanna listen to Sandy Koufax of all people, who do you trust?

IMO it's a huge warning signal that he doesn't have it together mentally.

IMO his main problem is control, not psychopathology ;-)

He's actually become very tough in a jam, and often gives up 1 run, not 3 like he used to.

It's the rest of us who are being driven nuts by it all, not him.

Here's what I don't know: Can taking something off be the cause of his stuff getting flat? It didn't do that to Koufax. Instead, it enabled him to suddenly become a legend (and with only 2 pitches). But everybody's different. Still, it seems odd to me that a slight reduction in speed would cause such a big difference in movement. Can anybody explain this?

[Moose Milligan]

Maybe because Koufax says he had the same problem and "taking something off" is what fixed it? Isn't that a good reason to at least try it for a while?

If you don't wanna listen to Sandy Koufax of all people, who do you trust?

IMO his main problem is control, not psychopathology ;-)

He's actually become very tough in a jam, and often gives up 1 run, not 3 like he used to.

It's the rest of us who are being driven nuts by it all, not him.

Here's what I don't know: Can taking something off be the cause of his stuff getting flat? It didn't do that to Koufax. Instead, it enabled him to suddenly become a legend (and with only 2 pitches). But everybody's different. Still, it seems odd to me that a slight reduction in speed would cause such a big difference in movement. Can anybody explain this?

Koufax is one in a million. Randy Johnson is, too. You nailed it when you said "But everybody's different." And indeed they are...which is why I keep rolling my eyes every time I see people comparing CaBBrera to Johnson...why aren't they also comparing CaBBrera to one of the many pitchers who never "found it"?

You're right about his peak in your prior post, too. He hasn't reached his peak yet (hopefully...)

It's just a feeling I have in my gut about him, I get it every time I see him pitch. I know there isn't a stat for having a feeling, an intuition or a gut instinct and therefore I know it doesn't carry a lot of weight on this board, but whatever. I can't help how I feel about CaBBrera when I see him pitch.

[Joe'sO's]

If Caberea could capture the arm slot that he had after the 3rd inning last night he could be Cy Young material. I've noticed that he throws more over hand when he struggling and when his release point is closer to his body,he just bears in on the plate.I think you have to hold on to DCab unless someone is willing to bleed for him. Instead,improve the offense to give him more runs to work with.

[Tomkingsize]

Bet you think that when he's throwing a three-hit, eight-inning shutout, huh?

And how often is that?

This guy has one or two solid starts a season....every other start he gets hammered.

The guy should have been dealt for a quality AA prospect prior to 2006 as I had suggested.

[Ruzious]

What exactly are we not appreciating appropriately? His 38-42 record? His 4.83 ERA? His 358 walks in 602 innings?

Or maybe it's the way his countenance starts turning sour whenever he has a bad start to an inning? C'mon, man. You know damn well why he's "under-appreciated."

Again, we all want him to succeed as an O. That's not in question here. But we don't have to stick our heads in the sand, either.

You cannot possibly be an O's fan.

Cabrera just turned 26 a couple of months ago. He's 39-42, 4.79 ERA - pitching for lousy teams each year.

At the same point in Bedard's career, he was 12-18 with a similar WHIP and maybe a half run better ERA. Did you start a thread about Bedard titled Buh-bye - or whatever you had in that sickening title that got replaced?

Cabrera is the hardest worker on the team - according to the O's tv announcers. They said he'd probably be the first one to the stadium tomorrow - after his start last night - to get in his running. So, don't you whine to me about "sour countenance". He presses too hard, because he wants so much to do well. Maybe he cares too much - especially when there are so-called O's fans who say they hate to watch him (which isn't just you, to our disgrace) and have already made up their minds that he'll never make it.

You know, with all the good feelings about Cal and the HOF, I was feeling good about being an O's fan. And then I read this thread - with the title that it had last night, and it stinks again. Maybe, I'll go to the Nats game tonight.

[theobird]

You cannot possibly be an O's fan.

Cabrera just turned 26 a couple of months ago. He's 39-42, 4.79 ERA - pitching for lousy teams each year.

At the same point in Bedard's career, he was 12-18 with a similar WHIP and maybe a half run better ERA. Did you start a thread about Bedard titled Buh-bye - or whatever you had in that sickening title that got replaced?

Cabrera is the hardest worker on the team - according to the O's tv announcers. They said he'd probably be the first one to the stadium tomorrow - after his start last night - to get in his running. So, don't you whine to me about "sour countenance". He presses too hard, because he wants so much to do well. Maybe he cares too much - especially when there are so-called O's fans who say they hate to watch him (which isn't just you, to our disgrace) and have already made up their minds that he'll never make it.

You know, with all the good feelings about Cal and the HOF, I was feeling good about being an O's fan. And then I read this thread - with the title that it had last night, and it stinks again. Maybe, I'll go to the Nats game tonight.

Whoaa down Ruzious, don't be taking off for the Nats. I agree with your post 100%. I would only trade Daniel if I were blown away by the offer. I remember when Bedard was frustrating me just as much or more than this kid. How many times did Bedard throw 100 plus pitches through 5 innings? The guy who suggests we should trade DCab for a decent AA prospect is insane. ANY ML team would trade a decent AA prospect for DCab. And we would be the stupidest organization in baseball to even consider it. Cabrera is a huge talent and a very nice young man. We deserve to see this kid through. And I now have confidence that we will.