Discuss Cabrera Here

[RVAbird]

Fair enough, RVA. I guess my question is, what is D-Cab's ceiling? Ace? No. 2? Solid No. 3? See, that's where it all falls apart for me. I can't slate him anywhere in those top three because of the wildness. And if there are GMs out there who can envision such things -- and I'd bet dollars to donuts there are -- I'd love us to send D-Cab their way in exchange for someone who might not have the same physical ability but knows how to pitch nonetheless.

I'm not a "burn Cabrera to the ground!" person but I'm also not a "hold on to Cabrera at all costs!" person. I'm not interested in trading him for pitching, but if a GM would like to swap a solid young bat for him I would definitely check it out. This is generally because we have a surplus of pitching and a deficiency of positional talent.

If not, then a cheap, young, solid, inning-eating, back end of the rotation starter (which D-Cab has been this year) is not a bad thing to have, even if he never develops into more. His value is at an all time low, so I'm skeptical that shipping him off right now would be a good thing.

[Ruzious]

A better question for this thread - Has there ever been an Oriole more under-appreciated and overly-criticised than Cabrera.

[Flosman]

I'm not a "burn Cabrera to the ground!" person but I'm also not a "hold on to Cabrera at all costs!" person. I'm not interested in trading him for pitching, but if a GM would like to swap a solid young bat for him I would definitely check it out. This is generally because we have a surplus of pitching and a deficiency of positional talent.

If not, then a cheap, young, solid, inning-eating, back end of the rotation starter (which D-Cab has been this year) is not a bad thing to have, even if he never develops into more. His value is at an all time low, so I'm skeptical that shipping him off right now would be a good thing.

We have a heck of alot of pitching in the system. I think an impact bat will do more to take the team to the next level than a high ceiling pitcher.

[Joe Orsulak Fan]

It's pointless to traade DCab for another pitcher. If you trade him it's for a bat.

Really? So you wouldn't even entertain an offer? C'mon. That's the kind of thinking that has hamstrung us for years. Let me make this perfectly clear: PEOPLE WILL TRADE A GUY WHO THROWS 91 WITH CONTROL FOR A GUY WHO THROWS 99.

Yes. It's true. And that is where we could possibly make hay. Their papers will herald the deal, their scouts will laud it, but in the end, we could get the better pitcher. That's my belief, anyway. (And no, I ain't the GM. But don't we all want to be?)

[RVAbird]

We have a heck of alot of pitching in the system. I think an impact bat will do more to take the team to the next level than a high ceiling pitcher.

That's exactly what I am saying.

[Joe Orsulak Fan]

A better question for this thread - Has there ever been an Oriole more under-appreciated and overly-criticised than Cabrera.

What exactly are we not appreciating appropriately? His 38-42 record? His 4.83 ERA? His 358 walks in 602 innings?

Or maybe it's the way his countenance starts turning sour whenever he has a bad start to an inning? C'mon, man. You know damn well why he's "under-appreciated."

Again, we all want him to succeed as an O. That's not in question here. But we don't have to stick our heads in the sand, either.

[El Gordo]

Really? So you wouldn't even entertain an offer? C'mon. That's the kind of thinking that has hamstrung us for years. Let me make this perfectly clear: PEOPLE WILL TRADE A GUY WHO THROWS 91 WITH CONTROL FOR A GUY WHO THROWS 99.

Yes. It's true. And that is where we could possibly make hay. Their papers will herald the deal, their scouts will laud it, but in the end, we could get the better pitcher. That's my belief, anyway. (And no, I ain't the GM. But don't we all want to be?)

No, unlike you I see a lot of progress with DCab; his BB/9 is down from last year, his ERA is now under 5.00. He has more innings pitched to date than for any of his complete seasons to. His first half numbers this year are better than his first half numbers last year. He improved a lot last year after the break and I fully expect him to do the same this year. He could easily have 10 wins at this point if he had some run support in a number of his QS. I don't think the O's need another pitcher who might not even be as good as DCab will be, more than they need another serious young bat like Markakis'.

[RShack]

In answer to your questions, there are a few people who are responsible for keeping DCab. Some of these, like the FO and Mazzone, work for the Orioles.

There are other people who do not work for the Orioles who also keep him here. This second group includes people like Sandy Koufax and Randy Johnson. In both cases, you see a pitcher who had very sharp divides between their performance early in their career vs. late in their careers. Their example demonstrates the great upside if DCab can settle in to his stuff and prove that his early career is growing pains.

There is no way to know if DCab will do that, but the promise of that is exactly what's keeping him here. Just because fans run short of patience, that doesn't mean that the promise is gone. It just means you're tired of waiting.

[Joe Orsulak Fan]

No, unlike you I see a lot of progress with DCab; his BB/9 is down from last year, his ERA is now under 5.00. He has more innings pitched to date than for any of his complete seasons to. His first half numbers this year are better than his first half numbers last year. He improved a lot last year after the break and I fully expect him to do the same this year. He could easily have 10 wins at this point if he had some run support in a number of his QS. I don't think the O's need another pitcher who might not even be as good as DCab will be, more than they need another serious young bat like Markakis'.

I respect that. We still disagree, but you make a good point.

[Sports Guy]

No, unlike you I see a lot of progress with DCab; his BB/9 is down from last year, his ERA is now under 5.00. He has more innings pitched to date than for any of his complete seasons to. His first half numbers this year are better than his first half numbers last year. He improved a lot last year after the break and I fully expect him to do the same this year. He could easily have 10 wins at this point if he had some run support in a number of his QS. I don't think the O's need another pitcher who might not even be as good as DCab will be, more than they need another serious young bat like Markakis'.

Yes it is but it higher than when he came back from his minor league stint...We were hoping for his BB rate to be down around 4(or lower) coming off of his second half...So, the BB rate has definitely been disappointing and it isn't that much lower than it was in 2005.

His K rate is now under 7.

That is very disheartening....I don't get it.

[El Gordo]

I respect that. We still disagree, but you make a good point.

Thanks I appreciate that. I would add that I have a lot of respect for Mazzone's judgement of pitchers and I won't give up on DCab before he does.

[El Gordo]

Yes it is but it higher than when he came back from his minor league stint...We were hoping for his BB rate to be down around 4(or lower) coming off of his second half...So, the BB rate has definitely been disappointing and it isn't that much lower than it was in 2005.

His K rate is now under 7.

That is very disheartening....I don't get it.

If you wait until the end of the season, you just might get it. We can always trade him in the winter if you don't.

[JTrea81]

If you wait until the end of the season, you just might get it. We can always trade him in the winter if you don't.

We should definintely trade Cabrera in the winter because we have Loewen coming back and we need a rotation spot for Penn because you don't want to waste him as a long reliever if the O's can't get that option. DCab has enough promise left to be able to get or be part of a package to get a young bat for LF or 1B. Hopefully he can have more starts like tonight and raise his value even more.

[El Gordo]

We should definintely trade Cabrera in the winter because we have Loewen coming back and we need a rotation spot for Penn because you don't want to waste him as a long reliever if the O's can't get that option. DCab has enough promise left to be able to get or be part of a package to get a young bat for LF or 1B. Hopefully he can have more starts like tonight and raise his value even more.

I'm high on Loewen but to my mind Penn is just as iffy if not more so than DCab. I think people are childishly impatient with Cabrera. Wait utill the end of the season. If DCabs numbers aren't significanyty better than last years, then by all means trade him if you can get Markakis 2 back. But you might not be so anxious to do so then, as you are now.

[Frobby]

Fair enough, RVA. I guess my question is, what is D-Cab's ceiling? Ace? No. 2? Solid No. 3? See, that's where it all falls apart for me. I can't slate him anywhere in those top three because of the wildness. And if there are GMs out there who can envision such things -- and I'd bet dollars to donuts there are -- I'd love us to send D-Cab their way in exchange for someone who might not have the same physical ability but knows how to pitch nonetheless.

See, this is where you need to shift your thinking. If you view Cabrera as a guy who COULD and SHOULD be a no. 1-2 starter, he will give you glimpses of that but generally disappoint you and drive you crazy. But if you just look at him as a serviceable no. 4-5 starter/innings eater, he fills that role both well and cheaply.

Here is a list of evey AL pitcher who has more than 60 IP, which therefore excludes all relievers and pitchers who have only a handful of starts. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=al&season=2007&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=60 As you can see, there are 74 of these pitchers -- basically just enough to fill up the 70 roatation spots of the 14 AL teams. And DCab, before tonight, ranked 52nd on that list. (He should move up to about 48th after tonight.) So 1-14 are your no. 1's, 15-28 are your no. 2's, 29-42 are your no. 3's, and 43-56 are your no. 4's. Cabrera fits as a no. 4, and he is giving you a ton of innings in that spot. That is not a bad thing to have at all.

Maybe one day Cabrera will fulfill a higher role, but for now he's useful for what he is.