What about Mayo?

[CP0861]

27 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

How is Mountcastle redundant?  He had an .893 OPS after his bout with Vertigo last year. If they did a 2nd half MVP, he’d be in the top 5 in the AL. 

No need to grab a few weeks worth of data when he has multiple seasons under his belt. If you're going to go that small with sample sizes, what was his OPS in September and October? I'll save you some time, it was horrible - literally anyone else on the roster could have put up that production. He went streaky again and basically disappeared for the last 6 weeks of the season.

He is what he is, he's a very streaky hitter with a bit of power who hasn't quite managed an .800 OPS since his rookie season (another small sample). Does it make him a whipping boy to say that?? Apparently. Maybe one day he'll start hitting the ball like some stats say he can, but I'll go with actual production, and his actual production isn't anything special. 

With that being said, I'd love to see him have a monster year in 2024, but to me he isn't the guy some of you want to make him out to be. Personally (and admittedly pure speculation on my part), I think he came up with a little 1st round hype and had some success. He hit 30+ hr's in his 1st full season, got a few ROY votes, and I think he got comfortable riding on that. I just read the Buck story a few posts back - I had never heard that before but to me, it fits with my own perception of him. Obviously none of us know the entire vertigo story, but it was interesting to see him come back on absolute fire. It looked like the time in the minors might have woken him up (even though he looked pretty horrible in AAA) and he looked like the guy I've been wanting to see, and then he completely fell of the table again. Personally, I'm ready to move on...I think his production can be replaced and he's about to get more expensive. I hope he gets off to a hot start and they trade him.

Edited December 20, 2023 by CP0861

[Moose Milligan]

6 minutes ago, Rbiggs2525 said:

Sure but I have always been a defender of Mateo because he’s a player with very high potential at times. I was also a person saying he should start every game vs LHP in postseason. He should spend the offseason practicing center field and left field. He could be add value vs LHP at those positions compared to Hays and Mullins. Postseason success means a lot to me personally. That’s the difference between Brooks Robinson and Alex Rodriguez. Not saying Mateo is more than a platoon player.

Noting that the difference between Brooks Robinson and Alex Rodriguez boils down to what they did in the postseason isn't a strong argument.

[sportsfan8703]

8 minutes ago, CP0861 said:

No need to grab a few weeks worth of data when he has multiple seasons under his belt. If you're going to go that small with sample sizes, what was his OPS in September and October? I'll save you some time, it was horrible - literally anyone else on the roster could have put up that production. He went streaky again and basically disappeared for the last 6 weeks of the season.

He is what he is, he's a very streaky hitter with a bit of power who hasn't quite managed an .800 OPS since his rookie season (another small sample). Does it make him a whipping boy to say that?? Apparently. Maybe one day he'll start hitting the ball like some stats say he can/does, but I'll go with actual production, and his actual production isn't anything special. 

With that being said, I'd love to see him have a monster year in 2024, but to me he isn't the guy some of you want to make him out to be. Personally (and admittedly pure speculation on my part), I think he came up and had some hype and some success...hit 30+ hr's and got a few ROY votes, and he's gotten comfortable riding on that. Obviously none of us know the entire vertigo story, but it was interesting to see him come back on absolute fire. It looked like the time in the minors might have woken him up (even though he looked pretty horrible in AAA) and he looked like the guy I've been wanting to see, and then he completely fell of the table again.

You’re right. I agree. Let’s just dump our 26 year old clean up hitter on a 101 win team. The Wall won’t affect Mayo like it has Mountcastle. Mayo is strong like Bull and will hit the ball into the 2nd deck. 

[Rbiggs2525]

10 minutes ago, deward said:

I'm talking Jorge Mateo who had an OPS of .472 from the beginning of May last year. The point is more about Ortiz, or any other prospect - if you've proven all you can prove in AAA, then all you're doing is watching the clock tick. You don't get an extension on the back end of your career because they delayed the start, that time is just gone. I don't think keeping that in mind is "catering" to the players. It's just treating them like people. However, if you can't bring yourself to care about that, then I'll redirect you to the wasted assets part of the equation. 

Are you question Mike Elias decision making and talent evaluation? Sad thing is a really like Joey Ortiz as a player and thought he had some very unlucky at bats last year. I also think he and Mateo can coexist on the same team. I would prefer to trade Norby because Ortiz has more versatility being a very good defensive shortstop. I hope he makes it on the roster out of spring training and someone like Mountcastle or Urias is moved for assets.

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, Rbiggs2525 said:

Sure but I have always been a defender of Mateo because he’s a player with very high potential at times. I was also a person saying he should start every game vs LHP in postseason. He should spend the offseason practicing center field and left field. He could be add value vs LHP at those positions compared to Hays and Mullins. Postseason success means a lot to me personally. That’s the difference between Brooks Robinson and Alex Rodriguez. Not saying Mateo is more than a platoon player.

Alex Rodriguez had an 822 OPS in the playoffs(973 in his one WS), Brooks had a 785.  In four WS appearances Brooks had an OPS of 695/103/1238/689.

Yes, Brooks absolutely went off in the 1970 WS but where was he in '69?

So what's the difference between Arod and Brooks?

 

 

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Noting that the difference between Brooks Robinson and Alex Rodriguez boils down to what they did in the postseason isn't a strong argument.

Especially when you look at the facts:

Postseason OPS: ARod .822, Brooks .785

World Series OPS: ARod .973, Brooks .697.

ALCS OPS: ARod .981, Brooks .883

Obviously, Brooks was amazing in the 1970 WS.   He largely sucked offensively in the other three, with a few notable moments but not many.  

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

 

Yes, Brooks absolutely went off in the 1970 WS but where was he in '69?

 

 

 

At home, washing his tights.

Good thing Brooks redeemed himself against the Reds.  I'm sure the scrutiny he received for his lack of World Series exploits at the time was as insufferable as the magnifying glass that A-Rod was under.

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, Frobby said:

Especially when you look at the facts:

Postseason OPS: ARod .822, Brooks .785

World Series OPS: ARod .973, Brooks .697.

ALCS OPS: ARod .981, Brooks .883

Obviously, Brooks was amazing in the 1970 WS.   He largely sucked offensively in the other three, with a few notable moments but not many.  

 

Dammit, Frobby, will you STOP letting facts get in the way of a good narrative that pits the lovable Brooks against the largely despised A-Rod?  

[CP0861]

18 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

You’re right. I agree. Let’s just dump our 26 year old clean up hitter on a 101 win team. The Wall won’t affect Mayo like it has Mountcastle. Mayo is strong like Bull and will hit the ball into the 2nd deck. 

Gotcha, great logic for keeping him...since they won 101 games, I'm wrong and Mountcastle is a stud.   By that logic, everything is perfect and they don't ever need to change a thing, right?  I never mentioned Mayo, but he's one of multiple guys who can probably put up a whopping 18 HR's as a "clean up hitter" like Mountcastle did in 2023.

Sorry you don't like it, but he was flat out mediocre for most of last season....except for about 35 games. But hey, go ahead and crown him with your made up partial season award if you want to. 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by CP0861

[RZNJ]

I’ve never been a supporter of Mountcastle but I’m anxious to see what he does this year.  After the all-star break he put up a .893 OPS with 25 walks against 43 strikeouts.   Yes, he went cold in September/Oct but it was 13 games, he had the shoulder injury, and even then had 7 walks against 9 strikeouts.  He went oppo more than ever last year and showed improvement in plate discipline.  Maybe nothing.  Maybe something.  Either way, he’s not going anywhere yet.

[emmett16]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Mayo 3B, Henderson SS, Westburg 2B.  Urías and Mateo on bench.  Holliday to Norfolk.  Ortiz goes in the trade for the pitcher but it’s not like Ortiz has to be moved to open a spot for Mayo.

Gotcha.  Ortiz was 6th guy.  He goes back to AAA? 

[deward]

10 minutes ago, Rbiggs2525 said:

Are you question Mike Elias decision making and talent evaluation? Sad thing is a really like Joey Ortiz as a player and thought he had some very unlucky at bats last year. I also think he and Mateo can coexist on the same team. I would prefer to trade Norby because Ortiz has more versatility being a very good defensive shortstop. I hope he makes it on the roster out of spring training and someone like Mountcastle or Urias is moved for assets.

If his decision-making ends up resulting in stacking up blocked prospects in AAA with no obvious plan alleviate the situation, then yes, that's worth questioning. It'd be a boring message board if we all just treated him as infallible. 

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Gotcha.  Ortiz was 6th guy.  He goes back to AAA? 

Ortiz gets dealt, most likely.   If he doesn’t get dealt he’s in the mix for starting 3B, or takes Urias job as backup IF.  He could go to Norfolk but I think that’s the least likely.

[wse120372]

31 minutes ago, CP0861 said:

No need to grab a few weeks worth of data when he has multiple seasons under his belt. If you're going to go that small with sample sizes, what was his OPS in September and October? I'll save you some time, it was horrible - literally anyone else on the roster could have put up that production. He went streaky again and basically disappeared for the last 6 weeks of the season.

He is what he is, he's a very streaky hitter with a bit of power who hasn't quite managed an .800 OPS since his rookie season (another small sample). Does it make him a whipping boy to say that?? Apparently. Maybe one day he'll start hitting the ball like some stats say he can, but I'll go with actual production, and his actual production isn't anything special. 

With that being said, I'd love to see him have a monster year in 2024, but to me he isn't the guy some of you want to make him out to be. Personally (and admittedly pure speculation on my part), I think he came up with a little 1st round hype and had some success. He hit 30+ hr's in his 1st full season, got a few ROY votes, and I think he got comfortable riding on that. I just read the Buck story a few posts back - I had never heard that before but to me, it fits with my own perception of him. Obviously none of us know the entire vertigo story, but it was interesting to see him come back on absolute fire. It looked like the time in the minors might have woken him up (even though he looked pretty horrible in AAA) and he looked like the guy I've been wanting to see, and then he completely fell of the table again. Personally, I'm ready to move on...I think his production can be replaced and he's about to get more expensive. I hope he gets off to a hot start and they trade him.

I cant see where Elias is happy with the production at 1st base..... First baseman (over 350 PA) who had WRC+ more than Mountcastle and O'Hearn include guys like Brandon Belt, Wilmer Flores, Luke Raley, Triston Casas, Ryan Noda, Lamonte Wade Jr, and Christian Walker. 

O'Hearn and Mountcastle only saving grace is that they are still cheap. 

[CP0861]

14 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I’ve never been a supporter of Mountcastle but I’m anxious to see what he does this year.  After the all-star break he put up a .893 OPS with 25 walks against 43 strikeouts.   Yes, he went cold in September/Oct but it was 13 games, he had the shoulder injury, and even then had 7 walks against 9 strikeouts.  He went oppo more than ever last year and showed improvement in plate discipline.  Maybe nothing.  Maybe something.  Either way, he’s not going anywhere yet.

His approach and the results were very noticeable when he came back up. It was what I had been hoping to see all along. The ability and potential has been there.

I don't know if it was the vertigo, or the reality check of realizing he was replaceable, or a combination of both. Hopefully, he carries that in 2024.