Jackson Holliday 2024

[spleen1015]

Matt Holliday is not telling Jackson something that's conflicting with the Oriooles coaching. Just stop with that BS speculation.

In one of the videos, he talked about working on the things the Orioles wanted him to work on over the winter.

[baltfan]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Adley did.  Gunnar did. 

So...stalemate.  

Let me know when we start losing games squarely because of Jackson Holliday's struggles.

I already said you and I are basically on the same page. I am ok with giving him another couple of weeks. 

[Billy F-Face3]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

The O's weren't winning yet when Adley went through this, so some of the "fans" weren't paying attention.

You're right; that's true.

Also, Gunnar had shown success in 2022 when he was called up and he was still walking regularly in the beginning of 2023. His OPS was no where near as terrible. Gunnar also had a significant amount of more games in AAA than Holiday, even with how fast he was promoted. I don't think it would be accurate to compare Gunnar's developmental path to Holliday's.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

So maybe you send him down and let him regain his balance, instead of throwing him out there.  

Or you understand that he has dominated the minors and that he isn’t some garbage player who is incapable of developing at this level?

[DirtyBird]

Could we trade him for a controllable bullpen arm?

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, DirtyBird said:

Could we trade him for a controllable bullpen arm?

Only if the other team is stupid.

[Moose Milligan]

9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

“that’s a good problem to have”

 

Thats the bs cliche to answer that, right?

Correct.  

Seems like a lot of people are so worried about a prospect coming up and mashing right away (or at least not looking as awful as JH has looked) that they'd be in favor of burying the kid because someone else could come up and hit.

Adley didn't look great when he came up.  Gunnar struggled.  I don't think Cowser is an apt comparison because he was already squeezed a bit by the outfield situation last year, I don't know if he ever would have received consistent playing time.  

I will concede the point that Adley and Gunnar didn't look this bad, but it's as if no one learns.  No one learns patience.  People talk about small sample sizes all the time, they hoist them up when a player is hot and dream on that player as if it's a foregone conclusion that said player will be a centerpiece for this team moving forward.  And when a player is doing bad, the small sample size is used as a cudgel like we're witnessing with Holliday right now.

To illustrate that point, let's not forget there was a strong contingent of people here that would have traded Cowser based off what they saw last year.  

There's no issue with Holliday hitting AAA pitching.  The issue with Holliday is his inability so far to hit Major League pitching.  IMO, there's no better place to work on hitting Major League pitching than playing Major League Baseball.  I don't know what going down to AAA and raking down there will accomplish, other than being able to feast on AAA.  People say "Well, he needs to go back and regain his confidence," completely ignoring the obvious notion THAT SENDING DOWN A PLAYER ISN'T EXACTLY A VOTE OF CONFIDENCE.  

And I said it before, I'll say it again, I want Holliday working with Gunnar and Adley and Cowser, all guys who didn't hit well right away.  I want Holliday around those guys so he can pick their brains on what to do and how to do it.  We're looking at Gunnar and Adley as the future leaders of this organization and that starts here and now, helping Holliday along.  

I just can't believe (read: can absolutely believe) that this is the third year in a row where we've had a hyped guy start off poorly and we're having the same stupid conversations over and over.  

If he's still looking this poorly in three or four weeks from now, fine.  But sending him down tomorrow does nothing.  

 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Correct.  

Seems like a lot of people are so worried about a prospect coming up and mashing right away (or at least not looking as awful as JH has looked) that they'd be in favor of burying the kid because someone else could come up and hit.

Adley didn't look great when he came up.  Gunnar struggled.  I don't think Cowser is an apt comparison because he was already squeezed a bit by the outfield situation last year, I don't know if he ever would have received consistent playing time.  

I will concede the point that Adley and Gunnar didn't look this bad, but it's as if no one learns.  No one learns patience.  People talk about small sample sizes all the time, they hoist them up when a player is hot and dream on that player as if it's a foregone conclusion that said player will be a centerpiece for this team moving forward.  And when a player is doing bad, the small sample size is used as a cudgel like we're witnessing with Holliday right now.

To illustrate that point, let's not forget there was a strong contingent of people here that would have traded Cowser based off what they saw last year.  

There's no issue with Holliday hitting AAA pitching.  The issue with Holliday is his inability so far to hit Major League pitching.  IMO, there's no better place to work on hitting Major League pitching than playing Major League Baseball.  I don't know what going down to AAA and raking down there will accomplish, other than being able to feast on AAA.  People say "Well, he needs to go back and regain his confidence," completely ignoring the obvious notion THAT SENDING DOWN A PLAYER ISN'T EXACTLY A VOTE OF CONFIDENCE.  

And I said it before, I'll say it again, I want Holliday working with Gunnar and Adley and Cowser, all guys who didn't hit well right away.  I want Holliday around those guys so he can pick their brains on what to do and how to do it.  We're looking at Gunnar and Adley as the future leaders of this organization and that starts here and now, helping Holliday along.  

I just can't believe (read: can absolutely believe) that this is the third year in a row where we've had a hyped guy start off poorly and we're having the same stupid conversations over and over.  

If he's still looking this poorly in three or four weeks from now, fine.  But sending him down tomorrow does nothing.  

 

Yep.

”Holliday has lost confidence”

”Let’s help his confidence by saying you aren’t good enough for this level and we are going to send you to a level you have nothing left to learn from”

 

Brilliant analysis!

 

Who knew we had so many psychiatrists on this board too?  

[Sports Guy]

I just want to know if people trust Elias or if he has lost that trust?  

He says the kid hasn’t lost confidence. Do people think Elias is lying?  Do they think Elias would continue to put Holliday in a situation where he could be damaged long term?

 

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

Who knew we had so many psychiatrists on this board too?  

Yeah, I just don't get the psychoanalysis aspect of it either.  Pretending to be able to see little things that give insight into the psyche of a player when that player is just going about their business.

It reminds me of when someone asked Ripken Sr. something about how Murray stood with his arms folded and if that indicated he had an attitude problem or something.  And Ripken Sr. was like, "bull****, that's just how he stands."

 

 

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Yeah, I just don't get the psychoanalysis aspect of it either.  Pretending to be able to see little things that give insight into the psyche of a player when that player is just going about their business.

It reminds me of when someone asked Ripken Sr. something about how Murray stood with his arms folded and if that indicated he had an attitude problem or something.  And Ripken Sr. was like, "bull****, that's just how he stands."

 

 

Last year, when Gunnar was sucking, they kept telling us he is fine mentally. That he would lean on the other players.

I know we all know it but this team is ridiculously close. It’s honestly one of my favorite parts of the org right now.  These guys are genuinely best friends. And while Holliday may not be “one of the guys” to the level of some of them, he has spent time with a lot of them and he seems close with them too.

He is leaning on these guys. He is leaning on his dad. This is new for him. He probably has never failed like this in his whole life. It has been knocked back but everything we have heard makes me believe he will overcome this with very little issue.

[Aristotelian]

6 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Correct.  

Seems like a lot of people are so worried about a prospect coming up and mashing right away (or at least not looking as awful as JH has looked) that they'd be in favor of burying the kid because someone else could come up and hit.

Adley didn't look great when he came up.  Gunnar struggled.  I don't think Cowser is an apt comparison because he was already squeezed a bit by the outfield situation last year, I don't know if he ever would have received consistent playing time.  

I will concede the point that Adley and Gunnar didn't look this bad, but it's as if no one learns.  No one learns patience.  People talk about small sample sizes all the time, they hoist them up when a player is hot and dream on that player as if it's a foregone conclusion that said player will be a centerpiece for this team moving forward.  And when a player is doing bad, the small sample size is used as a cudgel like we're witnessing with Holliday right now.

To illustrate that point, let's not forget there was a strong contingent of people here that would have traded Cowser based off what they saw last year.  

There's no issue with Holliday hitting AAA pitching.  The issue with Holliday is his inability so far to hit Major League pitching.  IMO, there's no better place to work on hitting Major League pitching than playing Major League Baseball.  I don't know what going down to AAA and raking down there will accomplish, other than being able to feast on AAA.  People say "Well, he needs to go back and regain his confidence," completely ignoring the obvious notion THAT SENDING DOWN A PLAYER ISN'T EXACTLY A VOTE OF CONFIDENCE.  

And I said it before, I'll say it again, I want Holliday working with Gunnar and Adley and Cowser, all guys who didn't hit well right away.  I want Holliday around those guys so he can pick their brains on what to do and how to do it.  We're looking at Gunnar and Adley as the future leaders of this organization and that starts here and now, helping Holliday along.  

I just can't believe (read: can absolutely believe) that this is the third year in a row where we've had a hyped guy start off poorly and we're having the same stupid conversations over and over.  

If he's still looking this poorly in three or four weeks from now, fine.  But sending him down tomorrow does nothing.  

 

Holliday's suckitude has been on a different level than anything we've seen before. He is also younger, and there is that extra year of service time we would get back by sending him down at some point. Part of it is about confidence. Could also be working on the leg kick or something else. Plus he will not get any chances to hit LHP at this rate. That worked for Cowser.

I'm willing to give it a bit longer. However, if the organization decided to send him down tomorrow I would trust their judgment. They have a great track record right now of developing their prospects under Elias. It's not like it's completely stupid to send him down now but in three or four weeks some bright line is crossed that it would be completely justifiable. 

 

[Billy F-Face3]

Why is there a debate going on about the kid's confidence? Something no one from either side of the debate can possibly know or understand. Who are we, Charles Xavier?

The only thing you can do is look at what's happening on the field. And right now, striking out at over 50% plus failing to keep balls in the infield is absolutely brutal. Gunnar was nowhere near this bad when he was called up in 2022. Gunnar hit a home run his first professional game, and earned a spot at batting fifth in the batting order in 2022. He was also pretty good with his glove. (Which was surprising, because he had a fair number of errors in the minors).

So with that said, yes you can stubbornly stick with it and hope for signs of improvement, and that's probably the right thing temporarily on the road trip and the A's series coming up. But the Yankees are on the Horizen and there's no way you can play this type of flailing in a division series that important. You have to start the clock on showing signs of improvement because the alarm bells are going off. We have a situation that is even worst than Cowser's cup of coffee last season.  Cowser and Rodriguez benefiting from going back down in a reset. Brooks Robinson, our beloved Brooks and Hall of Fame 3rd Basemen, also was sent back down at the start of his career and later in life he said it was one of the best things for him even though he didn't like it at the time it happened.

You don't have to send him down now, but you do need to be having a conversation about what to do and plan for the worst. Because this MLB debut has been pretty bad, especially for a prospect hyped up this highly.

[RichmondVA Orio]

I have a hard time understanding why he was not pinch hit for with the bases loaded against a lefty late in the game. You get a better matchup and a defensive replacement in a game that was still close at the time.

[Moose Milligan]

3 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

They have a great track record right now of developing their prospects under Elias.  

 

That's right.  That's exactly right.

So for now, they see some reasons to keep sending him out there.