Of course, none of us are technicians about hitting...but what can the Orioles do about Holliday?

[Roy Firestone]

3 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

Leave him alone and let him continue to learn.

I expect stuff like this from a newbie, but from a vet poster who is as knowledgeable as Roy? It is as if, we haven’t watched the last few years of baseball.

This is how it goes for almost ALL top prospects in baseball (including ALL our own) save JW who was decent out of the gate)… They struggle to adjust to the jump in competition.

I don’t know what about that is so difficult to understand? Did people think it would be different because his name is Holliday?

Let me be clear.I never said the young man is anything close to a bust.Its only been about a week. But his strikeout rate(more than half his at bats) is concerning right now. I believe he WILL figure it out and play well. But between facing top major league pitching, and playing a new position, this 20 year old has a lot on his plate.And then theres the scrutiny and expectation. I don't think the Orioles ever had a prospect with this kind of intense expectation.He'll be fine. But it may take a while.

[interloper]

Just now, Roy Firestone said:

Let me be clear.I never said the young man is anything close to a bust.Its only been about a week. But his strikeout rate(more than half his at bats) is concerning right now. I believe he WILL figure it out and play well. But between facing top major league pitching, and playing a new position, this 20 year old has a lot on his plate.And then theres the scrutiny and expectation. I don't think the Orioles ever had a prospect with this kind of intense expectation.He'll be fine. But it may take a while.

But it's not concerning. It's just not. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, interloper said:

But it's not concerning. It's just not. 

Not to anyone thinking about it rationally.

[Bemorewins]

1 minute ago, Roy Firestone said:

Norby is an option at second base.I think Holliday will get a long stint in Baltimore. Its his job to lose right now...but he COULD be sent down if it doesnt get better,

Jackson Holliday is a longterm cornerstone piece for this franchise. Connor Norby would be nothing more than a temporary place holder (no disrespect to him but he is NOWHERE NEAR the talent that Holliday is).

It is in the Orioles best interest to be patient (unlike you) and for Holliday to figure it out and get it going. Not replace him with a another player who is not in his tier/caliber as a ball player and simply say "next man up".

Roy, I am surprised that a guy who has been around as long as you is so impatient with a 20 yr old kid like Holliday.

Didn't watch Babe Ruth? LOL No, seriously you were around to watch some of the greatest of all-time! You saw "The Say Hey Kid" struggle out of the gate. Ripken Jr. struggled out of the gate. Bonds struggled when he first came to the show. And you were there to watch them all.

What makes this kid any different? 

I guarantee when you first started at as a sports journalist, you were not as great day 1, then when you came into your own and had that great show on ESPN were you interviewed some of the top athletes in the sport. With all your knowledge, wisdom, experience and expertise, you should KNOW that it takes time.

[Matt Bennett]

6 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Second, Gunnar was performing so bad (to some) through most of May last season that several posters/fans were advocating for sending him down. That's not "revisionist history" that's what happened.

I don't doubt that reactionary online posters advocating optioning Gunnar. I don't know how much that means or how much legitimacy I would stake into that stance. Those calls were ludicrous. He had a .348 OBP entering May. He hit .800+ OPS for the first 15 games of May. And that coming after an impressive two month debut the year prior showcasing power, strike zone awareness, exit velocities, blazing speed. 

[Bemorewins]

4 minutes ago, Matt Bennett said:

I don't doubt that reactionary online posters advocating optioning Gunnar. I don't know how much that means or how much legitimacy I would stake into that stance. Those calls were ludicrous. He had a .348 OBP entering May. He hit .800+ OPS for the first 15 games of May. And that coming after an impressive two month debut the year prior showcasing power, strike zone awareness, exit velocities, blazing speed. 

In that same MONTH, not WEEK, like some want to give Holliday; he also slugged .311 with a .659 OPS. And that was with the advantage of having 132 PAs the season before. Oh and Gunnar is 2 and 1/2 years older than Holliday.

[Matt Bennett]

12 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

In that same MONTH, not WEEK, like some want to give Holliday; he also slugged .311 with a .659 OPS. 

But....that's not that bad for a low period. 2023 monthly OPS's:

Anthony Santander (April) - .642

Austin Hays (July) - .446

Cedric Mullins (September) - .565

Adley Rutschman (June) - .660

Should we have put more legitimacy into calls to send these guys down/DFA them, if there were any? 

I just don't understand the need to tie Holliday's acclimation struggles to Gunnar's. They haven't been comparable. We can just give Holliday a large enough sample size to judge him without exaggerating Gunnar's history. 

[Bemorewins]

11 minutes ago, Matt Bennett said:

But....that's not that bad for a low period. 2023 monthly OPS's:

Anthony Santander (April) - .642

Austin Hays (July) - .446

Cedric Mullins (September) - .565

Adley Rutschman (June) - .660

Should we have put more legitimacy into calls to send these guys down/DFA them, if there were any? 

I just don't understand the need to tie Holliday's acclimation struggles to Gunnar's. They haven't been comparable. We can just give Holliday a large enough sample size to judge him without exaggerating Gunnar's history. 

This is my point. Almost all young players/prospects take time to adjust to the jump in competition when making the jump to the major League level. Almost all of them struggle. While their struggles may not be the same/equivalent, who they are when they arrive is not a determinant for who they will be. It takes time. 

I'm patient enough to allow the process to play out and I am certain that Elias and company are too.

[PeregrineT]

I dont think its mechanic(any more than any batter needing to adjust), its primarily just mental.  Every time he gets up you can just about hear the expectations of 30k.  Hes shown mechanically hes great, and while MLB pitching is clearly better its not the difference between .330 and .050.  I think with the strikeouts and the mis-fielding of balls hes shown how he just looks anxious and nervous(at 20).  He needs a game where he gets a couple hits, and then we will see if that settles him down.

The great thing is hes on a team where he has the time, where he doesnt have to hit.

[DenPA2002]

My wife was telling me what was wrong with this swing last night. How can a get that information relayed to him? 

[interloper]

Just now, PeregrineT said:

I dont think its mechanic(any more than any batter needing to adjust), its primarily just mental.  Every time he gets up you can just about hear the expectations of 30k.  Hes shown mechanically hes great, and while MLB pitching is clearly better its not the difference between .330 and .050.  I think with the strikeouts and the mis-fielding of balls hes shown how he just looks anxious and nervous(at 20).  He needs a game where he gets a couple hits, and then we will see if that settles him down.

The great thing is hes on a team where he has the time, where he doesnt have to hit.

Exactly - it's not like I'm clamoring for more Urias ABs. I'm enjoying watching the kid figure things out and get a lot of experience playing 2B. It's still a fun AB to watch IMO. The team was fine with Urias/Kemp prior to Holliday, which was producing nothing, so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. 

Previously I thought coming home would help him, but I think it's probably done the opposite, what with the media and fan attention. I see good things coming in the upcoming road stint. 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Matt Bennett said:

I'm always surprised to see Gunnar lumped in with the guys that "every rookie struggles" argument. I think that's pretty revisionist. Gunnar came up firing, batting .312 after 3 weeks. He cooled down after that. His April in 2023 was filled with too much patience and too much whiffing, but his OBP hovered around ~.340 in his "slump". 

Their acclamation periods have not been comparable. Holliday has barely gotten the ball out the infield, when he does make contact <50% of the time. I'm not really sure I've seen a line drive? It's been a disaster of a first week. But...who cares. Because it's only been a week. 

He’s had a few well-hit balls, but not nearly enough.  And agreed on your point about Gunnar.  

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

 

 

Didn't watch Babe Ruth? LOL No, seriously you were around to watch some of the greatest of all-time! You saw "The Say Hey Kid" struggle out of the gate. Ripken Jr. struggled out of the gate. Bonds struggled when he first came to the show. And you were there to watch them all.

Pretty sure Roy was just a glint in his father’s eye when the Say Hey kid came up.  

[dzorange]

1 hour ago, Roy Firestone said:

Let me be clear.I never said the young man is anything close to a bust.Its only been about a week. But his strikeout rate(more than half his at bats) is concerning right now. I believe he WILL figure it out and play well. But between facing top major league pitching, and playing a new position, this 20 year old has a lot on his plate.And then theres the scrutiny and expectation. I don't think the Orioles ever had a prospect with this kind of intense expectation.He'll be fine. But it may take a while.

The expectations are even higher because the O's are coming off of a 100+ win season.

Rutschman struggled for the first month or two (clearly not like Holliday has), but the O's had no expectation of winning going into his promotion. He was also hitting in the top six spots in the order. 

Holliday is hitting last regularly and is 20 years old.

I guess my only point here is that the expectations of the organization have grown. Adley and Holliday were both one ones and the #1 prospect in baseball. 

When Adley got called up, the Orioles started winning. While Holliday has been up, the Orioles are continuing to win. As long as the O's stay competitive, keep throwing Holliday out there in the 9 spot. At minimum he's getting reps defensively at second and hasn't been hurting the team there. 

[oriole]

4 hours ago, interloper said:

This thread is silly. Just keep running him out there. If you actually pay attention to his ABs instead of just the result you will clearly see he is close and taking better ABs.

I mean, I have watched a good amount of his at bats. Weak contact or a strike out. His one hit was not hit hard, his walk came right after Paddack was noticeably rattled by the Westburg home run and his fly out to deep center-right was the first time I’ve seen him hit a major league pitch with any authority whatsoever. 
 

I’ll say I’m with everyone in the thread that he should be out there every day for a while and let him work it out. But let’s not put lipstick on this pig, he is doing extraordinarily terrible right now.