O's Acquire Thyago Vieira

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

What this boils down to is that you looked at Vieira’s past stat sheet and, sight unseen, judged that he wasn’t a major league quality pitcher.   But at the professional level, GMs are looking at a lot more data and information than that, and take calculated risks that guys can be improved.   I’d say those calculated risks on guys like Vieira work out less than half the time, but when they do, they can pay off big.  I don’t think it’s irresponsible for a GM to do that in a careful way.  I mean, Yennier Cano was 28 years old and had a major league ERA of 9.22 when we traded for him.  In his first appearance for us he allowed 7 earned runs in 1.2 innings.   Was it an irresponsible decision to put him on the major league roster, or give him two more appearances that season?  Was it irresponsible to bring him back up the next year despite his 11.58 ERA in 2022?

I don't think the word irresponsible is the right word to use here at all, but Vieira has not been good at the major league level ever, and we can see his command is absolutely terrible. We can even see in statcast data that despite his velocity, his stuff is not very good overall though by looking at the arm side run he gets at times, it's probably that he doesn't have good stuff consistently enough. 

I think Cano and Vieira are a bit of an apples to oranges situation too. I also doubt even Elias knew Cano would turn into who he turned into. saying that, Cano did throw an immaculate inning  with the Twins AAA affiliate the year they acquired him. So he at least flashed that promise. 

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Philip said:

I don’t think you read my whole comment.  I said the game realistically wasn’t at risk.
As a fan I want the 11-0 shutout. The Boston fans are able to say,” At least we didn’t get shut out.” That’s why we are always happy to get a meaningless ninth inning run to spoil the shutout when we’re getting whammed. There’s even a term for it; “an FU run.” Yes, we won, but as fans, we’d rather have won 11-0 than 11-3, and everyone who has ever been happy about that single run in the ninth to spoil the opposition’s shutout would agree.

As GM, Mike doesn’t care about an individual game. I made that clear. He wanted to see what Viera could do. My entire point during this exchange is that he already basically knows what to expect from Viera, and it’s not good.

If he wants to try to fix what is wrong, fine. DFA him and send him to AA or AAA and let him work, and if he doesn’t make it through waivers, oh, well. But don’t put him on the 26 and let him try to fix his problems in games that count.

Ive already said that Viera shouldn’t have been on the 26, but given that he was, Mike was obviously willing to give Viera a chance at a live audition. 

I think you are a little too fired up over this and are digging your heels in a bit. The only issue with Vieira imploding was that they had to burn two more relievers in a game when they should have had to. I doubt many people care about whether it was a 11-0 or 11-3 win. It was still a blowout win. I have little hope Vieira will ever be a good major leauge pitcher with the command/control that I saw, but i don't have an issue with Elias giving him a shot if the real reason was to spend his major league salary on acquiring the FCL pitcher lottery ticket.

Now if Vieira stays on the roster long past when he should and the team plays a reliever down while they work on him, I'll have more issues. But I'll cross the bridge if they get there.

[Malike]

8 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I don't think the word irresponsible is the right word to use here at all, but Vieira has not been good at the major league level ever, and we can see his command is absolutely terrible. We can even see in statcast data that despite his velocity, his stuff is not very good overall though by looking at the arm side run he gets at times, it's probably that he doesn't have good stuff consistently enough. 

I think Cano and Vieira are a bit of an apples to oranges situation too. I also doubt even Elias knew Cano would turn into who he turned into. saying that, Cano did throw an immaculate inning  with the Twins AAA affiliate the year they acquired him. So he at least flashed that promise. 

They had the added advantage with Cano as well because at the start of last year, I don't think anyone thought the team was going to blast off into the stratosphere like they did, and giving him a chance that he took advantage of by being awesome early on helped a ton. If Cano was an 7 ERA guy after April in 2023, he's likely off the team, he performed like an all-star instead.

[Frobby]

30 minutes ago, Philip said:

Frobby, that’s a strawman. When we acquired Cano, we were a 100 loss team. If a guy is lousy on a lousy team, well that’s ok. If he’s lousy on a mediocre team that’s less OK but still OK.

Ahh, if only you were correct about your facts, perhaps you’d have a point.  We acquired Cano in July 2022, when we had a winning record.  He made his Orioles debut on September 10, when the O’s were still within 4 games of a wild card spot.  So, not a straw man, IMO.  

[Philip]

15 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Ahh, if only you were correct about your facts, perhaps you’d have a point.  We acquired Cano in July 2022, when we had a winning record.  He made his Orioles debut on September 10, when the O’s were still within 4 games of a wild card spot.  So, not a straw man, IMO.  

Fair enough. I knew we got him in 2022, but at the time, the team expectations were still very low; so low, in fact, that Lopez was traded to the Twins. And Cano wasn’t thrust onto the 26 man and into a game within 48 hours, but in the minors from July-September. And he only pitched four innings.  So my point, even if not completely accurate, is still essentially correct.

Edit: plus, in 2022, there were fewer options available for the pen, so there was much more of a need. Twelve relief pitchers got at least ten innings in 2022( not including three position players) and only six got more than 25 innings, so it was a constant search to find worthwhile guys for those final spots in the pen. We don’t have that crunch right now and we don’t need a guy like Viera on the 26

But I withdraw my strawman claim. Mea culpa.

Edited May 28 by Philip
Addendum

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, Philip said:

Fair enough. I knew we got him in 2022, but at the time, the team expectations were still very low; so low, in fact, that Lopez was traded to the Twins. And Cano wasn’t thrust onto the 26 man and into a game within 48 hours, but in the minors from July-September.  So my point, even if not completely accurate, is still essentially correct.

But I withdraw my strawman claim. Mea culpa.

Thanks for that.  I’m done spending time debating putting Vieira on the roster or how he was used yesterday.  We don’t see eye to eye on this but it’s not like I want to become president of the Thyago Vieira Fan Club.  

[sportsfan8703]

3 hours ago, interloper said:

I mean I just sorta think it was about dumping Stallings, and you get what you can for him. O's probably could have waited to grab Thyago on waivers, but said eh, might as well jump in line and get a 20-year old while we're at it, and get something for Stallings. 

If Thyago lasts longer than this Red Sox series on the roster I will be very surprised. 

Bingo. We essentially had to trade a AAA pitcher because he wasn’t going anywhere and we got an A ball player back. It’s what people suggest we do with Norby and Stowers all the time. Trade a blocked prospect for a low A prospect just to rearrange the depth/value. 

Our pitching may not be loaded with superstars in AAA, but we have deep depth. 

[accinfo]

8 minutes ago, Frobby said:

but it’s not like I want to become president of the Thyago Vieira Fan Club.  

Too late, no one else wanted the job! 

[Roll Tide]

5 hours ago, interloper said:

I don't really think the trade was really about Thyago at all, is the thing. 

Was it about the DSL kid? 

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Thanks for that.  I’m done spending time debating putting Vieira on the roster or how he was used yesterday.  We don’t see eye to eye on this but it’s not like I want to become president of the Thyago Vieira Fan Club.  

I heard the job is open though!  

[Roll Tide]

2 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I heard the job is open though!  

The position won’t be available long as I’m betting he gets DFA’d soon

[OriolesMagic83]

1 hour ago, Roll Tide said:

The position won’t be available long as I’m betting he gets DFA’d soon

Good luck getting someone to claim him unless it's part of their tanking strategy.  Heasley and Vieira I bullpen = guaranteed 100 losses.

[Billy F-Face3]

Gunnar makes an absolutely amazing play to throw out a guy moving towards 3rd and MASN totally ignored it acting like it never happened and would rather talk about animals. 

[Ripken]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I heard the job is open though!  

[OnlyOneOriole]

This may be the only website in the world where someone as unimportant AND TERRIBLE professionally as Thyago Vieira, as a complete JAG as ever been a JAG, can garner a 31 page thread talking about.....Thyago Vieira.

 

Who in the hell cares?  I don't get it.