I am so done with this bullpen

[mweb]

Yes, of course I am advocating a bullpen without Hendrickson.

If you have a bullpen that has Uehara, Berken, and Hernandez - you have 3 pitchers that can stretch, and I prefer each of them to to Hendrickson.

He has been fine in his roll, but he can be improved on. Not going to use him as a LOOGY... so again, if you can get Uehara back, and you shift Hernandez... I want Hendrickson gone.

Well that's rather crazy imo. The guy has been one of our top two relievers so far this year and was one of our best last year. He's effective for short appearances as well as being able to be stretched out. He absolutely cannot be improved on from our internal options. There is not a BP that can currently be constructed that is better by not having him. And DH should be in the rotation as well anyway.

Maybe you were one of the people who bashed AM for originally signing him and/or didn't want him back this year, that's the only way I can understand your position since you would have a bias.

[Sports Guy]

Yes, of course I am advocating a bullpen without Hendrickson.

If you have a bullpen that has Uehara, Berken, and Hernandez - you have 3 pitchers that can stretch, and I prefer each of them to to Hendrickson.

He has been fine in his roll, but he can be improved on. Not going to use him as a LOOGY... so again, if you can get Uehara back, and you shift Hernandez... I want Hendrickson gone.

I like Koji and think he will be good in the pen but he, like Hendrickson, is just signed through this year...Neither are the future...And Koji can't stay healthy.

At this point, Hendrickson is clearly a better bet to be able to perform all year than Koji.

And Berken and/or Hernandez can be used as 1-2 inning pitchers...You don't need to use them for 3-4 innings...and you probably wouldn't do that with DH.

[Fan of Newhan]

Wouldn't it be nice if most of our pitching prospects panned out? And in a year or two, our staff looks like this:

LHP Brian Matusz

RHP Chris Tillman

LHP Zach Britton

RHP Jake Arrieta

RHP Brad Bergesen

RHP Brandon Erbe

LHP Wilfrido Perez

RHP Jason Berken

LHP Troy Patton

RHP Luis Lebron

RHP Kam Mickolio

RHP David Hernandez

I know there is a decent chance at least two or three of these guys don't make an impact in the majors, but with the way this season is going, we can continue to dream about better days.

[mweb]

I have little confidence in Hernandez being a number 3 starter. Possible, but more likely a true 4/5 in the American League. (Again, being a 4/5 starter at his salary has plenty of value).

I project Tillman as a borderline ace, and feel very comfortable with him settling into at-least a solid 2nd starter.

I think Arrieta could be a 2/3... or he could show that he belongs in the pen. You need to see him gaining Major League innings now, to evaluate that.

What I would not want to do right now, is trade anyone of the three of Hernandez, Tillman, and Arrieta. Each of these arms are needed.

It's as if either this year hasn't happened or just about nothing that could have happened this year could change your opinion. DH has progressed nicely from last year, but you seem to give him no credit for that. While Tillman's poor spring has not affected your opinion at all it seems.

I'm not saying those things should receive a ton of consideration as they're obviously small sample sizes. However, the confidence in DH being able to be a good starter should be rising while the confidence in Tillman should be at least a little lower than before ST imo.

BTW, props to SG for saying DH should be in the rotation for the time being and for saying he looks better even though he was perhaps the most vocal poster saying he should go to the pen.

So at least some are flexable on their stated positions, just surprised at who.

[mweb]

I like Koji and think he will be good in the pen but he, like Hendrickson, is just signed through this year...Neither are the future...And Koji can't stay healthy.

At this point, Hendrickson is clearly a better bet to be able to perform all year than Koji.

And Berken and/or Hernandez can be used as 1-2 inning pitchers...You don't need to use them for 3-4 innings...and you probably wouldn't do that with DH.

Good post.

Yeah, Koji's health should be considered. More importantly as you say, Berken, Hernandez, and I'll add Koji can be used for short appearances as can Hendrickson. Plus, having more guys that can pitch 2+ innings consistently is a good thing, not something that should be limited.

[Sports Guy]

It's as if either this year hasn't happened or just about nothing that could have happened this year could change your opinion. DH has progressed nicely from last year, but you seem to give him no credit for that. While Tillman's poor spring has not affected your opinion at all it seems.

I'm not saying those things should receive a ton of consideration as they're obviously small sample sizes. However, the confidence in DH being able to be a good starter should be rising while the confidence in Tillman should be at least a little lower than before ST imo.

BTW, props to SG for saying DH should be in the rotation for the time being and for saying he looks better even though he was perhaps the most vocal poster saying he should go to the pen.

So at least some are flexable on their stated positions, just surprised at who.

Well, Tillman's issues are mechanical and learning a new pitch.

You have to assume he is going to be fine and he is the better prospect with the higher upside...I think it would be pretty poor to have a different opinion of him now vs before ST.

Now, your opinion may have changed on DH because of things he has worked on but that's also a small sample size.

Ultimately, I think Chris will be right...but for right now, things should stay at status quo...THat could change quickly though.

Hendrickson could also fall on his face over his next 7-10 appearances but right now, the idea of him being out of the pen is just wrong.

[orioole28]

It's as if either this year hasn't happened or just about nothing that could have happened this year could change your opinion. DH has progressed nicely from last year, but you seem to give him no credit for that. While Tillman's poor spring has not affected your opinion at all it seems.

I'm not saying those things should receive a ton of consideration as they're obviously small sample sizes. However, the confidence in DH being able to be a good starter should be rising while the confidence in Tillman should be at least a little lower than before ST imo.

BTW, props to SG for saying DH should be in the rotation for the time being and for saying he looks better even though he was perhaps the most vocal poster saying he should go to the pen.

So at least some are flexable on their stated positions, just surprised at who.

This is what bothers me the most about most poster here. The fact that they don't recognize the improvement of DH and the lack of improvement from Tillman, but yet he gets a free pass!:scratchchinhmm:

[mweb]

Well, Tillman's issues are mechanical and learning a new pitch.

You have to assume he is going to be fine and he is the better prospect with the higher upside...I think it would be pretty poor to have a different opinion of him now vs before ST.

Now, your opinion may have changed on DH because of things he has worked on but that's also a small sample size.

Ultimately, I think Chris will be right...but for right now, things should stay at status quo...THat could change quickly though.

Hendrickson could also fall on his face over his next 7-10 appearances but right now, the idea of him being out of the pen is just wrong.

I think it's pretty poor to keep the exact same opinion of these guys based on what's happened. If Tillman had a great spring and a good start to this year, I'd bet a lot that you can Stoner among others would be using that as some confirmation of your previous beliefs. Rightly so as well. Now again, not saying you guys would be putting a ton of weight into it as of course you know the sample size issue, but some weight, yes.

According to what we just heard about Tillman, he's really not working on mechanics much if at all, he's working on the new pitch and the plane of his fastball I believe.

The reason to have some change of opinion imo is Tillman was mediocre at best in the bigs last year and regressed this spring while DH was mediocre at best in the bigs last year and has noticeably improved. His slider is much better, his control is better, and he's worked on a new pitch.

So that has to be considered imo. But yeah, that doesn't mean that much confidence should be lost in Tillman. He still should have a bright future, but the confidence isn't quite as high as it was last year around this time.

Chris may be right about Tillman and Arrieta eventually being better, but of course I am not arguing that. The point is both still have things to work on, but we can bring one of them up to replace BB while the other still works in the minors while we find out what we have in DH. There is nothing wrong with that approach imo. It's not going to hurt anyone's future and it gives us a chance of having another guy in DH show he can be a solid or better starter for us.

Maybe Hernandez begins to struggle as a starter, but if that happens, what have we lost?

To your final point, sure, Hendrickson can fall on his face, but he's starting to develop a pretty good track record as a reliever so I don't think the chances of that happening are high at all. But knowing our luck, he will start to suck.

[Sports Guy]

This is what bothers me the most about most poster here. The fact that they don't recognize the improvement of DH and the lack of improvement from Tillman, but yet he gets a free pass!:scratchchinhmm:

This is what bothers you?

What about your outrage over the last several years when this idea wasn't the case?

[mweb]

Well... were not talking about releasing Hendrickson when Uehara is on the DL right? If Uehara is activated, and you have moved Hernandez to the bullpen... why would you need Hendrickson?

Because he is one of the best relievers on the team. As I said before, that isn't just based on this year either.

[mweb]

I don't think that is true. I think I have previously stated in this thread and numerous other times that I like Hernandez. I think I have stated in this thread, and previously that I think Hernandez gets credit for his maturation and work he has put in.

I think I have also said that I believe he would equal the production of Tillman, and Arrieta in the rotation in 2010.

I think I have also stated several times that I would be looking to trade my personal favorite Oriole (Guthrie) to give Hernandez the opportunity to continue starting if the O's want that.

Where my opinion has not changed, is that yes... I continue to believe Tillman, and Arrieta both have far better upside than Hernandez as ML starters, and continue to believe the O's are improved today with Tillman in the rotation, and Hernandez in the pen.

Sure, you give him credit and so forth, but like you say, your opinion really hasn't changed at all. Well I don't move a guy to the pen who has pitched well so far as a starter and has the ability to be a good SP MLB because of the chance that a guy who has struggled so far this year in ST and the minors along with another prospect being added to the rotation makes the team better.

I don't think it would make the team better, but regardless that's an awful message to send to DH and to the team in general.

[Stotle]

This is what bothers me the most about most poster here. The fact that they don't recognize the improvement of DH and the lack of improvement from Tillman, but yet he gets a free pass!:scratchchinhmm:

Tillman just turned 22; Hernandez is about to turn 25.

At Tillman's age Hernandez was at HiA Frederick -- I'm sure Chris's family and friends would appreciate someone pointing this out when a poster accuses Tillman of a "lack of improvement". It's fine to be a strong supporter of David as a starter, but I see no reason to act like Tillman is doing ANYTHING wrong or disappointing -- particularly for comparison's sake to Hernandez.

[Sports Guy]

Well... were not talking about releasing Hendrickson when Uehara is on the DL right? If Uehara is activated, and you have moved Hernandez to the bullpen... why would you need Hendrickson?

He would not be there because he is left-handed... I totally agree with you, that you use Berken / Uehara / Hernandez for 1-2 inning pitchers. That is what you are basically using Hendrickson as.

The difference is, Trembley does not have the confidence to use Hendrickson in tight situations. While I can understand that lack of confidence, as long as he is on the roster, I would like to see him get that chance. I suspect that each of Uehara, Berken, and Hernandez would represent better options.

To basically answer your point... if you have Uehara, Berken, and Hernandez in the pen, and you have released Hendrickson... and Uehara gets injured yet again... I agree, it would be unfortunate. I'm fine with taking that risk though, and there would be another handful of AAA arms I think could be just as effective.

But what has Koji shown that says he is in the pen over Hendrickson.

Plus, what about the rest of the pen? Ohman, Meredith and Castillo are terrible...Mickolio can't throw a strike on consecutive pitches..Albers blows.

Give me Hendrickson over all of them except maybe Mickolio and there is still enough room for him as well.

[Sports Guy]

Tillman had better success at both AA, and AAA than Hernandez (when accounting for the 3 year age difference). At the Major League level, he produced exactly the same. Anyone that saw Tillman's Sept 2009 start in NY (after he battled through adversity in the 1st) and finished strong - and categorizes his ML experience as mediocre - I would strongly disagree with that opinion.

He was 21 years old... 2 months into the show, and showing poise and maturity beyond his years against the eventual World Champs.

The O's are 2-15... what exactly are you achieving this year, if you are not giving as much Major League experience as possible to guys you are going to rely on going forward? Just because players have stuff to work on, does not mean they should not be in the Majors. Whenever you get to the Majors, there is going to be an adjustment, and continuing adjustments. (see Adam Jones).

I am of the belief that Matt Wieters is a better player today, than he would have been had he spent all of 2009 in AAA. Maybe you disagree?

You want to see Tillman string together a couple of starts... fine, I can agree with that. If they wanted to bring him for the next start, I would be fine with that as well.

Then trade Guthrie or Millwood...or move Guthrie to the pen.

[mweb]

Tillman had better success at both AA, and AAA than Hernandez all the while being 3 years younger. At the Major League level, he produced exactly the same. Anyone that saw Tillman's Sept 2009 start in NY (after he battled through adversity in the 1st) and finished strong - and categorizes his ML experience as mediocre - I would strongly disagree with that opinion.

He was 21 years old... 2 months into the show, and showing poise and maturity beyond his years against the eventual World Champs.

The O's are 2-15... what exactly are you achieving this year, if you are not giving as much Major League experience as possible to guys you are going to rely on going forward? Just because players have stuff to work on, does not mean they should not in the Majors. Whenever you get to the Majors, there is going to be an adjustment, and continuing adjustments. (see Adam Jones).

I am of the belief that Matt Wieters is a better player today, than he would have been had he spent all of 2009 in AAA. Maybe you disagree?

You want to see Tillman string together a couple of starts... fine, I can agree with that. If they wanted to bring him for the next start, I would be fine with that as well.

I already know that Tillman has had a better minor league career and is the better prospect. I'm not saying he will be inferior to DH.

So one start keeps his major league season from being mediocre? He had a 5.4 ERA and a 6.1 FIP last year. Yet, you basically dismiss DH's 3 starts and ST this year in terms of your opinion of him?

Wieters is liking better due to that, but he was also someone with less to work on in the minors than Tillman and Arrieta imo. One of those guys can pitch in the bigs with DH anyway.

Your what are we playing for comment helps my side of the argument better imo. We're better going forward if DH shows he can be a solid starter and one of Tillman/Arrieta get to come up and try to do the same while the other develops in the minors and likely still gets a shot due to injury and/or ineffictiveness and/or trades of SP's.

I also think you and SG and Trea among others go overboard in terms of thinking prospects need to be brought up at a certain time or they won't develop much. Tillman has things he's working on right now that are likely better to be worked on in the minors. Arrieta isn't a finished product either. I certainly don't think these guys need to be finished products but I'm also not going to say their devolpment is stunted much if at all by staying in the minors a little longer.