I am so done with this bullpen

[eddie83]

Again, I've already stated several times that I think the O's need to be trading my favorite player - Guthrie - if they want Hernandez starting.

Especially with him having coming off 4 decent starts... move him now.

Why trade a guy with Guthrie's talent so someone who isn't as good gets to pitch. You honestly think we are in a position to get rid of pitching talent. Guthrie isn't old he's 31. Why trade him so a prospect who isn't ready to be here gets starts? Tillman's success will depend on his skills not his experience.

[mweb]

Well... based on how he is used, the Mgr. obviously disagrees with your assessment. Myself, I would like to see him utilized in higher pressure situations. If he is on the roster, you have to be willing to use him in those situations.

To be clear, you would rather have Hendrickson on the mound in a critical situation vs. a healthy Uehara, Berken, or Hernandez?

Well the manager is doing a great job isn't he?

Yes, he should be used in those situations. And Berken isn't being used in critical situations either.

I didn't say anything about who I would rather have in a critical situation and you know what, it doesn't matter because there is clearly room for all of them in the pen.

To answer your question, I don't think I'd have any big preference for any of them over the other. Hendrickson's track record as a reliever gives me plenty of confidence in him relative to our other options. I guess it would depend on matchups, rest, and how guys are pitching at the time.

[Sports Guy]

I've already said several times what I would do with the rest of the bullpen.

Henderson is moved because of those other moves.

Talking about when Uehara, and Gonzalez are healthy...

Gonzalez

Uehara

Johnson

Mickolio

Hernandez

Berken

Ohman / Perez

I don't care if the O's keep Ohman or Perez... but clearly they are going to keep a LOOGY. Ohman did make 80+ appearances for Atlanta in 2008, and did avg nearly a K per IP... you want to replace him with Perez, fine... who cares? If you want Hendrickson over Ohman, or Perez... I could actually get behind that, but the O's have shown no indication of using Hendrickson in that capacity.

So other than Ohman, who would you keep Hendrickson over? You already said no to Mickolio, and I agree. Not going to be Gonzalez, not going to be Johnson. If Hernandez was moved to the pen, it is not going to be Hernandez.

The decision would be Hendrickson vs. Berken, and Uehara. I guess this is a non-issue to get worked-up over. I know who I would prefer, but Uehara first has to show an ability to get back to the team.

Right now, [i am keeping Hendrickson over Mickolio...In 1-2 months things could change.

The changes you talk about may very well be the right ones...but they can't even be thought of until at least June 1 or so.

Cutting Meredith, Ohman and Albers don't need anymore time to know they blow.

[mweb]

Yes, clearly you are correct. It would be absolutely horrible message to a team that is 2-15, to tell them you are making a move to improve the on-field performance starting today.

I know, I know... you don't think Hernandez to the pen makes the team better.

Do you think Hernandez is likely to be a better Major League starter than Tillman or Arrieta?

Haha, that is hilarious. Yes it is a bad message to demote a guy who it pitching well. DH is not going to look at it as a move that improves the team and I doubt the rest of the team would either.

I think he has a decent chance at being better than one of them. All 3 of them could end up being good starters which would be the best case scenario.

[mweb]

No, one start does not keep him from being mediocre. One start encapsulates what he was achieving in the Majors as a 21 year old. It is about context.

If you simply want to limit the discussion to numbers alone, there is nothing Hernandez achieved in the Majors last-year that was any better than Tillman.... and he was 3 years older doing it.

I think you misrepresent my argument. It certainly is not that if Tillman, and Arrieta do not come up to the Majors now - that they will not develop much.

It is that in seasons where you can not contend, I want to spend as much time as possible with the players that best represent the chance to be players you rely on going forward. That the Majors will always be an adjustment... and I would rather them be gaining experience, and going through lumps and adjustments now... then in seasons where you expect more.

The other reason I want those players here now, is because I believe the O's are a better team today with them here.

I didn't say DH was better than Tillman last year, I clearly said they were both mediocre at best last year in the majors and DH has noticeably improved since then while Tillman regressed some and now he's working on that.

All 3 guys should get a decent amount of time in the majors this year regardless of if DH is kept as a starter for now or not.

I just don't see any argument for not continuing to give DH a chance as a starter while he is pitching well in that role, has shown improvement that suggests he can stick, and BB and Tillman have had issues to the point where the O's feel they need to work on some things in the minors.

I also agree with you about looking to deal Guthrie.

I'm not misrepresenting your argument, that comment about development was in reference to many comments you and the other two posters I've mentioned have made over time.

It seems that you however are misrepresenting my argument when you show me Tillman's minor league numbers and ask me who I think will have a better career. It's not about that, the point is they should both get that chance, and I think that's what's best for their current development and for the team presently and in the future since they can end up with both being solid or better starters instead of just one. Or if Tillman and Arrieta disappoint, maybe DH won't and he'll be more needed in the rotation.

[mweb]

I think you have a very fair criticism of Trembley in this point. Still, I think you have to consider why Trembley is not using him in those spots. Yes, I think it is also fair to point out that Berken ( a player I prefer ) is also not being utilized as such.

I've considered it and I think it says much more about DT than it does Mark. He has consistently pitched well out of the pen, but he wasn't brought in to be a late inning guy for the most part. So DT hasn't really adjusted despite the struggles of the late inning guys. I see no reason to think that Hendrickson would pitch worse in higher leverage late inning appearances.

[eddie83]

You trade Guthrie because you can reasonably replace his 2010 production with players more likely to help you going forward. You trade Guthrie because getting regular 2010 starts by those players, will help you in 2011.

I could not disagree more with the idea that Tillman's success is based on skills alone. Very few players ascend to the Majors and just consistently produce starting immediately and never deal with adversity, stagnation, or even temporary regression. It is a game of adjustments. I would rather spend a season where you can not contend, letting Tillman deal with some of those adjustments... vs. letting the calendar turn to 2011 and trying to let him deal with those lessons then.

Guthrie I think has a chance to be a big part of our future. Unlike our prospects he actually has proven he can pitch in this division. A team that is trying to get better doesn't trade away a guy at this stage in Jeremy's career so a prospect can pitch. I doubt very seriously that having Guthrie here is stopping anybody who is capable of being a quality MLB pitcher from being here right now. I think it is wrong to think that Guthrie's production is so easily replaceable. He could be here for a long time.

Matusz didn't pitch in AAA, look at him now. He can pitch, bottom line. You can't hide at this level. You act like because he isn't in the majors right now he is in the witness protection program. He still exists. He is learning his craft that's all. Experience helps us all in all walks of life, I agree. Pitchers like Olson and Cabrera didn't get better with experience though. Experience doesn't make you better if your skill set doesn't get better. How about giving Tillman more experience when he is ready to make the most of it.

[mweb]

Yes, all 3 of them could be good starters and that would be the best case scenario. As such, if the O's believe in Hernandez as a starter (or at-least want to continue to evaluate him as such) I think they need to be moving Guthrie.

I would not look at Hernandez to the bullpen as a demotion though. As I said to ooriole28... if you explain to Hernandez that a move to the bullpen improves the the team today.. and moves him 1 step closer to becoming a closer... a position where you believe he could be elite, I would imagine he could get behind that. Especially when he sees some of the $$'s mediocre closers are making.

They should look to deal Guthrie, but they don't need to deal him for DH, Tillman, and Arrieat to get shots at some point. I think we've learned to expect openings to arise in the rotation for various reasons. We already have one unexpected opening.

Well it doesn't matter how you would look at it. It matters that he and others on the team would view it as a demotion.

[nate22]

Our Starters -99IP /29BB

Our Bullpen -46.2 IP/25BB

Disgusting.

[mweb]

And as I've said previously... I agree, I'd like to see Hendrickson get those opportunities. If he proves me wrong, great. I just happen to believe the other aforementioned 3, would each provide better options.

That's fine, but there's not 7 better relievers on this roster even if everyone is healthy and you move Hernandez to the pen which is unlikely to all happen anyway. I think that is rather clear.

[mweb]

In this latest example you seem to think that me stating I want Tillman up now, is me stating Tillman will not develop much if he does not.

That is an inaccurate representation.

Tillman will still develop. It is a question of when. It is also the belief that the Majors will always be an adjustment... and in the case of this player, believing the player that has excelled at both the AA, and AAA levels (while getting his feet wet in the Majors) is ready for further Major League work.

Well not based on many comments you've made unless I'm not remembering correctly. Regardless, I think there is a difference in how much you and I think guys like Tillman can get out of the minors. Chris has obviously already gotten his feet wet and I've said I want him to get more of an opportunity this year.

[mweb]

It does not matter how he or others on the team would look at it, if it would improve the team.. and it would improve the team.

Basically what you are saying is you believe the O's are a better team with Hernandez in the rotation, and Meredith in the pen, as opposed to Tillman in the rotation, and Hernandez in the pen.

I think it matters. Oh, so now we've gotten to the point of the debate where you simply say you're right without any doubt.

Right now Tillman is working on stuff, I don't know that he can be nearly as effective in the rotation as DH right now. We also don't know if DH would be great in the pen from the start or ever for that matter. So yeah, the difference between Tillman and DH may not add up to a positive when comparing the difference between DH and Meredith. BTW, Kam would quite possibly be the guy sent down imo.

Plus Tillman will likely be better in the long-run imo if he works out whatever he's working out in the minors instead of the majors. If the future is what's most important, let him work on these things were he'll have the most willingness to work on them in games.

[mweb]

I think you are 'misremembering' or never really understood the argument to begin with. I mean even in this thread, you got it wrong.

Perhaps I would not explicit enough with my thoughts, which falls on me. I've tried to be as clear here I as I can.

This is the same argument I've always had.

Ok, whatever you say.

This is a nice example of a poster taking a small point and blowing it up out of proportion.

Oh, and I get the argument, I disagree with it, and yes, if you think guys like Tillman develop just as well in the minors as I do, than yes, you have done a very poor job being clear on that.

[mweb]

7? Maybe not... but there are at-least 6...

Gonzalez (1)

Uehara (2)

Johnson (3)

Mickolio (4)

Hernandez (5)

Berken (6)

As I said to Rob... if the O's wanted Hendrickson over Ohman or Perez, I could get behind that.

Not Mickolio at the moment and Hendrickson may be better than some of the others presently as well.

[mweb]

No, this is just a matter of a discussion on-line vs. a discussion in-person. Some points get missed, or at-least misinterpreted on-line.

Even here, you again have my opinion wrong. I never said anything about believing Tillman would be developing just as well in the Minors. I said I think Tillman can still develop, even if he does not come up now. Yes, you are partly correct in thinking that I am stating he can continue to develop in the Minors, as his professional experience grows.

What I was really saying, is that I agreed with your earlier point that at some point this year Tillman will be up in the Majors. At that point, is when I think his development really continues.

You stated that I (and SG, and Trea) had the argument that prospects need to be brought up at a certain time or they won't develop much. That is not my argument, and never has been. My argument has always been a question of when that development will occur, and believing the Majors require constant adjustment.

One point I have made plenty of times is that I do believe players can stagnate, and have nothing left to prove at the Minor League level.

I'm arguing the point, because there is a discernible difference. I'm fine with you disagreeing with my opinion. I am not comfortable with you getting my argument wrong, and telling me what my argument is.

That's only because you told me that my point about you was wrong which said that

Regardless, I think there is a difference in how much you and I think guys like Tillman can get out of the minors.

I adjusted to that line, sorry that you choose to be hung up by the previous comment and that has lead you to continue to say I'm not getting what you're saying. Again, you're taking a small part of my commentary and blowing it up to make it seem like I don't get your argument or whatever.

I get what you're saying, so go ahead and be comfortable.