Mazzone let go

[Rockbird]

Oh brother.

I thought we had moved past sticking the likes of Jeff Fiorentino and JJ Johnson in trade proposals.

I'm sure they're nice guys, but nobody else needs or wants guys like this.

To be fair, wildcard does not necessarily represent the views of of the OH. The deal I'm looking for and I think most would find acceptable is Tejada for Pie and Cedeno. Quick and easy. What do you think?

[davearm]

To be fair, wildcard does not necessarily represent the views of of the OH. The deal I'm looking for and I think most would find acceptable is Tejada for Pie and Cedeno. Quick and easy. What do you think?

I think that's realistic.

I think the Cubs would regret it, but I think it's realistic.

[longflyball]

Riiight...

I suppose you think that every person should respond equally as well to a teaching style, and that because one pitcher can flourish under Mazzone, they should all be able to? That's just garbage.

I'm not saying that the base talent of all these guys is at a high level, but that's not to say it's not possible that there is a high percentage of our pitchers who haven't taken to Mazzone's style. There are two things you can do in that situation: change the students or change the teacher. Or, I suppose you could let the pitchers continue to fail to flourish under Mazzone and then blame them for not being able to improve by sheer fact that Mazzone is the greatest pitching coach that ever coached a pitcher in the entire history of baseball.

The only reason I am somewhat against Mazzone leaving is that there does need to be some sort of consistency at some point. You've got to pick someone and stick with it. Changing pitching coaches every two years is not likely to help any of our pitchers develop.

Well, if I have to choose between "Mazzone is the greatest pitching coach that ever coached a pitcher in the entire history of baseball" and "Mazzone coached very successfully in Atlanta for more than a decade but came to Baltimore and suddenly became a stubborn grouch who couldn't relate to young pitchers", I guess I'll take the former, Alex.

[NoVaO]

Oh brother.

I thought we had moved past sticking the likes of Jeff Fiorentino and JJ Johnson in trade proposals.

I'm sure they're nice guys, but nobody else needs or wants guys like this.

I agree with this. Plus, RBIs are a team-dependent stat and they are something that should really have no business in evaluating a player's future.

LOL -- you love to chuckle at the Markakis / Murton comps, and think, oh there goes davearm overvaluing his crappy Cubbies again.

Well the two were both 900+ OPSers the 2nd half this year, when Murton finally got some regular PT (Murton 918, Markakis 939).

And when the two got similar ABs over a full season (2006), they were basically even in OPS then, too (Murton 809, Markakis 799).

For their careers: Murton 820, Markakis 826.

As much as you wish I was wrong, sadly for you, I'm not.

This I completely disagree with. Murton is a nice young player. But he basically is what he is. He'll be in the .780 - .820 range of OPS most of his career. He has a chance to be better if he is put into a loose platoon role.

But Markakis, who is 2+ years younger than Murton, is currently a better player than Murton and has a good amount of projection left in him, which Murton does not.

Markakis at age 22 did what Murton did at age 24. While Murton regressed a little, Markakis at age 23 improved his numbers by a steady amount and bested what Murton did at age 24 and easily put up better numbers than Murton did when he age 25.

The biggest problem with Murton is that doesn't hit right handers well enough to really be anything more than what he is now.

His 05 season was helped by getting 71 ABs against lefties (1.006 OPS) and 69 vs. righties (.807 OPS).

In 06, with more ABs, the Cubs still shielded him a little against righties but let him hit against more right handers. The huge split shows up again.

vs. LHP - 136 ABs, .870 OPS

vs. RHP - 319 ABs, .782 OPS

In 2007, same thing:

vs. LHP - 91 ABs, .891 OPS

vs. RHP - 144 ABs, .727 OPS

And then you dig a little deeper into his minor league numbers. Same thing:

05, AA

vs. LHP - 1.008 OPS

vs. RHP - .827 OPS

07, AAA

vs. LHP - 1.060 OPS

vs. RHP - .900 OPS

He hits lefties anywhere from .870 - .920 at the big league level and righties anywhere from .720-.810.

So, when you factor in age, projection, and splits, Murton's upside is pretty limited. Don't get me wrong though. Murton is a solid player but he isn't on Markakis' level.

[scOtt]

I was told a few days ago Pie and a pitcher will be the package we'll look for in trade for Tejada.

http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/pie.htm

[davearm]

Murton and Markakis both have very typical LH/RH splits. If Murton belongs in a platoon then so does Markakis.

The bottom line is that these guys have career rate stats that are right on top of each other in almost every category. Statistically, Murton is exactly on Markakis' level.

[NoVaO]

Murton and Markakis both have very typical LH/RH splits. If Murton belongs in a platoon then so does Markakis.

The bottom line is that these guys have career rate stats that are right on top of each other in almost every category. Statistically, Murton is exactly on Markakis' level.

You look at each player's OPS for their careers and you say you have a case.

You look at everything else and Markakis has a clear advantage.

Age - Markakis is 2 years younger

Production - Markakis, last year in a full season put up better numbers than Murton has the last two years...again, at 2 years younger.

Projection - Markakis is projected to be an all-star caliber player. While he is currently the better player, he is still projected to get better. His body has more room to fill out. Murton is what he is. A solid player with limited upside.

Also, Murton's second half came in 112 ABs over 2 months. Markakis' second half came in 319 ABs in over 3 months.

The splits are a much bigger issue when 500 of your PAs come against right handed pitchers as an everyday player.

It also seems like over his career, the Cubs have played him against almost all lefties and mostly the hittable right handers. Markakis played against EVERY single LHP, no matter how difficult the match-up.

Murton is not on Markakis' level unless you want to look at it in the simplest of terms. And next year, you won't even be able to do that.

[wildcard]

I doubt that McPhail would make a Tejada for Pie and Cedeno deal. Pie has a lot of risk that he will not turn into the potential player that he has been hyped to be. Cedeno has not shown anything to say he will make the jump to the majors a be a productive players. Going with just the two in the deal is too high a risk for the O's. Tejada is a sure thing. He will produce. Has produced. The risk for the Cubs is very low that he will not do well.

If you read the response that McPhail stated about Viola, he says he likes safety in numbers if he is trading a established player. That is what I am trying to say in my post.

I don't view Murton as anything close to Markakis. He is a limited defense player who is misfit into the Cub outfield right now. He is hardly at the top of the list to trade Miggy for. If the Cubs really views him as much more then that then he probably does not belong in the trade, because they would be overvaluing him.

Fiorentino is in there just to say that the O's might include a minor leaguer.

I think the Dodgers or some three way deal with the Pirates would net the O's better players then the Cubs have to offer. If there is a Miggy deal for unproven players then McPhail will wants safety in numbers. At least that is what I think he has indicated. This is all about trying to read McPhail mind through his comments and past history. I have included some logic in my posts based on what he has said. Where is your logic? I'd love to heard something that makes sense.

[wildcard]

I agree with this. Plus, RBIs are a team-dependent stat and they are something that should really have no business in evaluating a player's future.

Ok, Ok. You guys hate RBIs but love hitting with runners in scoring postion. IMO they normally follow one another.

Murton hit 186/284/305/589 with runners in scoring position this year. Not exactly Markakis-est. I don't think he is any where close to the player that Markakis is or will be.

[Fairfax Bird]

Murton and Markakis both have very typical LH/RH splits. If Murton belongs in a platoon then so does Markakis.

The bottom line is that these guys have career rate stats that are right on top of each other in almost every category. Statistically, Murton is exactly on Markakis' level.

I think the comparison is a fair one. Here is two reasons I would much rather have Markakis than Murton:

1. He is two years younger. I believe Markakis will spike to a .900 OPS and Murton will top out at about .875, but even if they stay comparable Markakis is likely going to keep his OPS high for a longer period of time.

2. Markakis is a better defender. If there was justice in the world Markakis would win a GG this year. He was incredible in RF. Murton is probably a little above average, but Markakis is incredible out there.

[Fairfax Bird]

I'm a fan of Murton, but it is pretty hard to argue with this post.

Yeah, NoVA laid that down pretty well, Davearm, a reasoned response?

[Sports Guy]

Yeah, NoVA laid that down pretty well, Davearm, a reasoned response?

Don't worry...If Murton was an Oriole and Markakis was a Cub, Dave would be saying the comparison is absurd.

Dave operates with a double standard...That is why i have him on ignore...It just gets old.

[clapdiddy]

I voted "Yes" on the poll. I don't blame our pitching troubles on Mazzone, but I just think a manager should be allowed to choose his own staff. If Trembley is uncomfortable with Mazzone, then he deserves the opportunity to hire his own guy.

[Mark Carver]

I voted 'Yes', in it let's Trembley pick his own pitching coach. I have been vehement about the way the ballclub has always made a new manager be saddled with the coaching staff. Think of it, Miller, Hargrove, Mazzilli and Perlozzo all had to inherit their predecessor's existing coaching staff, for the most part.

[Moose Milligan]

Am I the only one who doesn't really care that Mazzone is gone?

I won't vote either way since I'm pretty indifferent.

I echo Clapdiddy, I don't blame the problems on Mazzone and I think it's good that Trembley's gonna pick his own staff.

IMO, it wouldn't have been a big deal if we kept him...I also don't think firing him is a big deal, either.