Mazzone let go

[theobird]

Don't worry...If Murton was an Oriole and Markakis was a Cub, Dave would be saying the comparison is absurd.

Dave operates with a double standard...That is why i have him on ignore...It just gets old.

No question about this. Anybody who makes an argument that Murton is at the same level as Markakis is....biased. Or that person does not take into account half the game, defense.

But make no mistake about it, Murton is a good player. I would love to have Murton as our LFer next year. I would say that Murton, Pie and Theriot would be a fair trade for Miggy and Fiorentino. Pie is a risk, with a high ceiling. Theriot is not exactly high ceiling. Murton is a sure thing, though he will never be an all-star caliber player. I want no part of Cedeno. He has almost zero value to me.

[Fairfax Bird]

Am I the only one who doesn't really care that Mazzone is gone?

I won't vote either way since I'm pretty indifferent.

I echo Clapdiddy, I don't blame the problems on Mazzone and I think it's good that Trembley's gonna pick his own staff.

IMO, it wouldn't have been a big deal if we kept him...I also don't think firing him is a big deal, either.

Actaully, I am kind of happy about it. If we are to have a youthful team we need some upbeat people, which Mazzone is not. This off-season will have intrigue for sure. Hopefully they see the value in a total re-build.

[Sports Guy]

I see this got turned into a poll....I voted yes but only because i think DT should be able to pick his own coaches.

I didn't want Mazzone gone but if DT and AM believe this to be the right move, then i will back them on it for now.

[Flosman]

I am OK with DT picking his staff. However unless there were real problems between the two, I question his decision and I hope he is held accountable for it. Leo is a proven winner, the only coach on last years staff that can say that. It is my opinion that one of the things that make great Managers/Head Coaches is surrounding yourself with winners. So I would like to have more info before I simply said it was a good or bad move. If DT thought it would be hard to work effectively with Leo then I can support his choice, but it will be hard to find anyone to replace Leo that has the qualifications that Leo brings to the table. Hopefully DT has made the right choice, but I do fear he has not.

[Sports Guy]

In fairness, so do plenty of us. I know I tend to do it.

Yea, you are right. I guess it just bothers me more from an "outsider"..lol

[Sports Guy]

I am OK with DT picking his staff. However unless there were real problems between the two, I question his decision and I hope he is held accountable for it. Leo is a proven winner, the only coach on last years staff that can say that. It is my opinion that one of the things that make great Managers/Head Coaches is surrounding yourself with winners. So I would like to have more info before I simply said it was a good or bad move. If DT thought it would be hard to work effectively with Leo then I can support his choice, but it will be hard to find anyone to replace Leo that has the qualifications that Leo brings to the table. Hopefully DT has made the right choice, but I do fear he has not.

There is a lot of truth to what you say here.

I am willing to back DT and AM on this right now....But this could easily be just another poor decision in the long line of poor decisions by this organization.

[Boy Howdy]

It makes me wonder what the motives were to hiring him in the first place considering his program wasn't implemented system wide. The franchise is going to look even more foolish a couple of years from now after he goes somewhere else where they buy into what he has to offer. Yet another squandered opportunity.

Ditto! This about sums up my view.

I think it's wrong to characterize Mazzone as a poor communicator. If he's so gruff and blunt about expressing himself, then his problem isn't making himself clear. Sounds to me like he's communicating too well for some people's comfort if anything.

One obvious example of a successful communicator that wasn't exactly holding hands with his players and talking about their feelings was the great Earl Weaver himself. Ex-Cardinals pitching coach Hub Kittle -who worked over six decades in professional ball- left behind a legacy of stories about his booming voice echoing throughout stadiums as he screamed at his pitchers about what they needed to do.

The O's may not have been the right fit for Mazzone, but the posters acting like he should never work in baseball again because of his communication issues are really missing the boat.

[davearm]

You look at each player's OPS for their careers and you say you have a case.

You look at everything else and Markakis has a clear advantage.

Age - Markakis is 2 years younger

Production - Markakis, last year in a full season put up better numbers than Murton has the last two years...again, at 2 years younger.

Projection - Markakis is projected to be an all-star caliber player. While he is currently the better player, he is still projected to get better. His body has more room to fill out. Murton is what he is. A solid player with limited upside.

Also, Murton's second half came in 112 ABs over 2 months. Markakis' second half came in 319 ABs in over 3 months.

The splits are a much bigger issue when 500 of your PAs come against right handed pitchers as an everyday player.

It also seems like over his career, the Cubs have played him against almost all lefties and mostly the hittable right handers. Markakis played against EVERY single LHP, no matter how difficult the match-up.

Murton is not on Markakis' level unless you want to look at it in the simplest of terms. And next year, you won't even be able to do that.

The mistake you make is to hold Murton's lack of opportunity against him. He doesn't fill out the lineup card or decide on the roster, so his small number of ABs is completely outside his control.

You compound that error by assuming that a smallish number of ABs is indicative of a talent deficit or a modest ceiling or "he is what he is" or whatever. No such conclusion is warranted.

Look, Markakis was in a much better situation than Murton in 2007 -- Markakis got regular ABs all year and didn't have to deal with being in and out of the lineup, up and down from AAA, pinch-hitting, etc.

Not surprisingly, Markakis blossomed while Murton stagnated.

How would Murton have done in Markakis' situation (or visa versa)? Impossible to know exactly, but I'd sure be curious to know. It's hardly a stretch to say Murton would've done just as well as Markakis did, considering that's exactly what happened in 2006: under similar circumstances, the guys put up nearly identical numbers.

Looking ahead to 2008, how will things turn out if the Cubs are smart enough to make Murton their everyday RF? Your guess is as good as mine, but you'd be foolish to think there's good reason to believe one guy will hit significantly better than the other.

[davearm]

I think the comparison is a fair one. Here is two reasons I would much rather have Markakis than Murton:

1. He is two years younger. I believe Markakis will spike to a .900 OPS and Murton will top out at about .875, but even if they stay comparable Markakis is likely going to keep his OPS high for a longer period of time.

2. Markakis is a better defender. If there was justice in the world Markakis would win a GG this year. He was incredible in RF. Murton is probably a little above average, but Markakis is incredible out there.

Markakis is a much superior OF. That much is indisputable.

The projection thing is easy to argue either way. Markakis is younger, but he's been a regular for 2 years now, getting consistent ABs all along the way.

Murton is only 25, and has plenty of room to grow if he'd just get that same chance at consistent ABs.

FWIW, I think both guys will settle in as mid-800 OPS guys.

[Baroquen131]

The mistake you make is to hold Murton's lack of opportunity against him. He doesn't fill out the lineup card or decide on the roster, so his small number of ABs is completely outside his control.

You compound that error by assuming that a smallish number of ABs is indicative of a talent deficit or a modest ceiling or "he is what he is" or whatever. No such conclusion is warranted.

That sounds like the Orioles FO method of evaluating our MiL free agents this year.

Ok, so I'm disappointed in Mazzone being kicked, even though I understand the desire to let Trembley pick his own coaches. I'm not convinced about the knocks on Leo... some are saying his flaw is not working with the bullpen thus leading to our bullpen's poor performance. (But then we commiserate about how difficult it is to find consistent bullpen arms). Some say he doesn't work well with young pitchers (and then we see a list of young arms he had success with in Atlanta). Some say he works well with talented pitchers but not regular guys (and we see the list of "Mazzone effect" projects in Atlanta). Some say he didn't have any success here (but then there's Bedard, Guthrie, and some work with Loewen). And no, I don't believe the rash of injuries can be put solely at Mazzone's feet as there was not a similar string of injuries in all those years with the Braves.

So anyway, I get it. It's a bold move, and there at least is some "traditional" thinking to justify it. I'm just not sure whoever replaces Mazzone is going to be any better. (And I find it funny that people are constructing the "NOW Cabrera might get better" bandwagon already. He is what he is. His upside is dead, IMO). Nothing for us to do but to see what happens. And then of course, the obligatory "give them time to improve" excuse to follow.

[Spoonless]

And I find it funny that people are constructing the "NOW Cabrera might get better" bandwagon already. He is what he is. His upside is dead, IMO.

Hey, it might be a pipe dream, but maybe a new PC will click with Cabrera in a way that others have failed to do. It's certainly in the realm of possibilities. I've said before that Cabrera may do better with a different pitching coach, and that I'd like to see him out there next season over bringing in a veteran pitcher if we can't get a significant return for him. To bank on him showing said improvement would be silly, but at this point, after this season, why not put him out there anyway?

I'm not saying to hand him a spot in the rotation. If other guys step up in ST and earn a spot over him, put him in the bullpen. I'm sure someone will be injured at some point next year, and DCab can take his spot and at least eat some innings.

[eddie83]

Tom Davis and Dave Johnson were talking about Leo this morning. Davis said Leo was going to be fired in the middle of last season but Perlozzo went to Angelos to stop it. Johnson heard from people he talks to that Leo was a "bad guy".

I for one think the firing is a good thing. I think Leo is a good pitching coach but you can't have it both ways. If you want an organization to do things the right way then they have to be able to fire people even with a track record if they think the move will be in the teams best interests.

[Goop]

They times, they are a changing.

[RShack]

... i think DT should be able to pick his own coaches.

I didn't want Mazzone gone but if DT and AM believe this to be the right move, then i will back them on it for now.

My thoughts exactly...

[weams]

I am sorry Leo was let go. I am, however in complete support of Dave.

I want to blow it up and I think we will now.