Dice-K didn't make it through 5 in the ALCS.

[Chollie Eckman]

Being an Orioles fan means you can't say anything complimentary, or even objective, about the Red Sox or Yankees. You have to exaggerate their faults and flaws to make the Orioles seem less inept. For example, if you say that the Sox were smart in trading for Mike Lowell you're part of an evil cabal. Pretty simple, really.

No, if you said they were smart at the time of the trade you would be misinformed. If you say they were lucky now you would be correct. Keeping you honest.

[DrungoHazewood]

Here let me ask the group. How many of you got a certain glee by hearing the primordial screams from the Boston fans after every single run-scoring hit in extra innings Saturday night?

I surely did. BTW, my glee was extended last night when Lofton hit that homer and then Dice-K didn't make it out of the 5th.

I also have some despair seeing die hard O's fans defending that signing with every fiber of their being.

Absolutely. And it ZERO to do with who was on the mound for the Red Sox. I can objectively look at something a team I hate does, and objectively judge whether or not it was smart. I hate the Sox and Yanks, but most of what they do is 1000 times smarter than what the Orioles have been doing.

I'm still bitter that the Orioles didn't sign Matsuzaka themselves, and that's why I defend the signing.

[DrungoHazewood]

No, if you said they were smart at the time of the trade you would be misinformed. If you say they were lucky now you would be correct. Keeping you honest.

Exactly. Never admit they were smart. Just rich and lucky.

[The Wedge]

Absolutely. And it ZERO to do with who was on the mound for the Red Sox. I can objectively look at something a team I hate does, and objectively judge whether or not it was smart. I hate the Sox and Yanks, but most of what they do is 1000 times smarter than what the Orioles have been doing.

I'm still bitter that the Orioles didn't sign Matsuzaka themselves, and that's why I defend the signing.

I only got a thrill for those annoying bandwagon Sox fans. I feel bad for the thick and thinners.

[Tank]

Your coming into the debate a little late.

Uhh, actually I made the 4th post of the thread and I've been posting throughout it... Whatever. Of course I was rooting against the Red Sox and Dice-K when he was pitching. You're just being ridiculous.

[Chollie Eckman]

Absolutely. And it ZERO to do with who was on the mound for the Red Sox. I can objectively look at something a team I hate does, and objectively judge whether or not it was smart. I hate the Sox and Yanks, but most of what they do is 1000 times smarter than what the Orioles have been doing.

I'm still bitter that the Orioles didn't sign Matsuzaka themselves, and that's why I defend the signing.

You're over simplifying it a bit. Their free agent signings can be argued to be worse than ours. I'd be willing to bet that both of those teams lose money this year.

Is there any possibility of bitterness by the RS front office that they might not get a good return on that investment? I think it's a good possibility. However in the long run he'll probably be a better signing than Drew, Lugo, and Clement.

[Chollie Eckman]

Uhh, actually I made the 4th post of the thread and I've been posting throughout it... Whatever. Of course I was rooting against the Red Sox and Dice-K when he was pitching. You're just being ridiculous.

Actually this debate is months old.

[Chollie Eckman]

Exactly. Never admit they were smart. Just rich and lucky.

You have to at least admit that that was luck. He put up career numbers this year and carried the team in May and June. He was the contract nobody wanted as part of the Beckett deal and you HAD TO take him. That was luck.

[DrungoHazewood]

You're over simplifying it a bit. Their free agent signings can be argued to be worse than ours. I'd be willing to bet that both of those teams lose money this year.

Is there any possibility of bitterness by the RS front office that they might not get a good return on that investment? I think it's a good possibility. However in the long run he'll probably be a better signing than Drew, Lugo, and Clement.

No chance they actually lose money. The Red Sox brought in $170M just in ticket revenues this year. The Yanks more than that. They make much more than that in TV revenues, then throw in merchandising, parking, and concessions. Then throw in playoff money. They're doing just fine. They can afford their payrolls - they're not stupid. They didn't just sign Matsuzaka as a crazy risk based on a rosy, best-case scenario. Baseball is awash in money, and the richest teams even more so.

[DrungoHazewood]

You have to at least admit that that was luck. He put up career numbers this year and carried the team in May and June. He was the contract nobody wanted as part of the Beckett deal and you HAD TO take him. That was luck.

You don't consider that the Sox scouted Lowell, thought they knew what was wrong with him in his one off year, thought he could fix it, and took a chance? Isn't that just as likely as assigning 100% of the credit to dumb luck?

[The Wedge]

You don't consider that the Sox scouted Lowell, thought they knew what was wrong with him in his one off year, thought he could fix it, and took a chance? Isn't that just as likely as assigning 100% of the credit to dumb luck?

Just as likely, yeah, but nowhere NEAR as fun!

[BostonFan]

Matsuzaka is in a completely different situation than he had in Japan. There, he pitched once a week, could throw when he felt like it on the side. Here, it's every 5 days, and he can't have his long side sessions. Even as a sox fan and with the hoopla that came along with him signing, I didn't expect him to be Cy Young. He still won 15 games, had over 200 strikeouts, and if you look into his stats, the Red Sox went through an insane stretch where they scored 0, 1 or 2 runs in his starts. This signing wasn't a quick fix to get the team back into the postseason. It was a long term investment. Next year, I expect him to pitch better, and then in year 3 of the 6, he will establish himself as the other ace of the staff along with Beckett. Bottom line: he hit the wall. Hard. I'm not worried about him having a bad 2nd half and 2 subpar playoff performances. He made one mistake to Kenny Lofton, and then the wheels came off in the 5th. Would this thread even be here had the Red Sox scored a few runs and he leaves tied or down a run?

[Chollie Eckman]

No chance they actually lose money. The Red Sox brought in $170M just in ticket revenues this year. The Yanks more than that. They make much more than that in TV revenues, then throw in merchandising, parking, and concessions. Then throw in playoff money. They're doing just fine. They can afford their payrolls - they're not stupid. They didn't just sign Matsuzaka as a crazy risk based on a rosy, best-case scenario. Baseball is awash in money, and the richest teams even more so.

I think it was Forbes that said that they actually lost money last year. So did the Yankees. They were the only two. That was before the Drew, Matsuzaka, and Lugo signings and Beckett's deal kicking in. John Henry's hedge fund business was doing a lot better last year too. Not so good now. Just another reason to root against them.

[Chollie Eckman]

You don't consider that the Sox scouted Lowell, thought they knew what was wrong with him in his one off year, thought he could fix it, and took a chance? Isn't that just as likely as assigning 100% of the credit to dumb luck?

Admit it. It was more luck than anything. They wanted Beckett and didn't want Lowell, but had to take him. Geez the guy batted over .325 this year. His first time over .300 in his career. Who does he think he is Barry Bonds?

[mweb]

I think it was Forbes that said that they actually lost money last year. So did the Yankees. They were the only two. That was before the Drew, Matsuzaka, and Lugo signings and Beckett's deal kicking in. John Henry's hedge fund business was doing a lot better last year too. Not so good now. Just another reason to root against them.

Those two teams are quite good as hiding some of their TV profits so they don't have to share as much of their revenue.