Whichever side you're on of the Hall of Fame Steroids Debate ...

[LookitsPuck]

I'm to the point with the whole steroids debacle to just let anyone with the right numbers/criteria into the HOF. The biggest issue here is that steroids and other PED's weren't banned from baseball until drug testing was implemented in 2006. Blame it on the PU or whomever. But the point stands that they weren't banned, players found a way to perform better (just like players have in the past), and that's why we're in the situation we're in now.

[jamalshw]

Not many, but there are some rules. Most notably the ones that say if you gamble on baseball you're banned, and if you're banned you're ineligible for the Hall.

But that's about it. There's nothing in the baseball or HOF rules that would preclude the induction of someone who corks a bat, pops a pill, or spits on a ball.

Noted.

Though that is not really a rule to the voting against 'cheaters,' people have written Rose's name on the ballot before. There isn't a rule against voting for him, he is simply excluded from the ballot.

[DrungoHazewood]

Noted.

Though that is not really a rule to the voting against 'cheaters,' people have written Rose's name on the ballot before. There isn't a rule against voting for him, he is simply excluded from the ballot.

I strongly suspect that the HOF would invalidate any significant number of votes for a candidate they've explicitly banned from induction.

[atomic]

I think you have to let Bonds in. Hey would be in the Hall in any era without the use of steroids. McGwire is not a hall of famer without steroids. I would not vote him in.

The problem you have to face as a voter would be is that there is no way of knowing who was not on steroids. I mean just someone didn't get caught doesn't mean he wasn't cheating. I would just assume every player was juicing during the steroid era and work from that knowleged in determining whether they belong in the hall of fame.

[jamalshw]

I strongly suspect that the HOF would invalidate any significant number of votes for a candidate they've explicitly banned from induction.

We're both on the same page, it's an argument of semantics. I still believe that Rose and Jackson belong in the Hall.

[jamalshw]

I think you have to let Bonds in. Hey would be in the Hall in any era without the use of steroids. McGwire is not a hall of famer without steroids. I would not vote him in.

The problem you have to face as a voter would be is that there is no way of knowing who was not on steroids. I mean just someone didn't get caught doesn't mean he wasn't cheating. I would just assume every player was juicing during the steroid era and work from that knowleged in determining whether they belong in the hall of fame.

This is true. Though based on the case Palmer is making (either intentionally or not) is that 'cheaters' are already in. Why distinguish one Preston's advantage from another's. and if you broaden it to make the 'character' argument (one of the considerations the Hall notes on the ballot), I would point to Cobb who likely had less (or more, depending on how you look at it) 'character' than anyone we're discussing now.'

[VeveJones007]

*really hate to do this...*

Oh really? Like what? Personally, that particular argument is one I've held for years now. Every era has it's quirks. From 93-05 we can just subsection it into it's own era. Bonds, Clemens et al proved they were the best of that era and should be in the hall of fame. Notice, I don't say "deserve". It wasn't a level playing field but it was the only field we had for more than a decade. The steroid era was part of the game.

I didn't say anything about Bonds or Clemens. Bonds will and should be in based on his career prior to the PEDs. For me, Clemens is iffy because I think he started using after his Red Sox career. Did he have good enough numbers in Boston to warrant induction? Possibly.

Now, as far as holes in the argument:

1) It assumes that all forms of cheating are equally beneficial to a player's ability. Does using amphetamines give you more, less, or the same advantage as adding 30 lbs of muscle from steroids and being able to hit and throw a ball much harder? What about scuffing a baseball? Stealing signs?

2) It assumes that people knew that the cheaters in the Hall were known cheaters prior to their induction.

There is so much gray area on this issue that it can't be narrowed down to 500 words on an ESPN blog. The argument is too simple, which is why it has holes in how it is presented in that blog.

[ledzepp8]

I didn't really care for the article. It's an argument I've heard several times before. There are several holes in it that the writer didn't choose to delve into. I would expect as much from ESPN.

Yeah and I really didn't get the whole point on the 300 inning pitchers. Obviously pitchers don't throw as many innings as they used to but that probably has more to do with modern medicine and 5 man rotations than anything else.

[DrungoHazewood]

Yeah and I really didn't get the whole point on the 300 inning pitchers. Obviously pitchers don't throw as many innings as they used to but that probably has more to do with modern medicine and 5 man rotations than anything else.

And the fact that before a fairly recent date most pitchers threw at 80% effort much of the game. Going through a lineup in the 60s and before you often had only a handful of guys in any given lineup likely to take you deep, and a lot of lineups had several glove-first players who really couldn't hit at all. Plus a pitcher.

If Roy Halladay and CC Sabathia had pitched in 1935 they'd have been throwing 350 innings a year.

[24fps]

I'm to the point with the whole steroids debacle to just let anyone with the right numbers/criteria into the HOF. The biggest issue here is that steroids and other PED's weren't banned from baseball until drug testing was implemented in 2006. Blame it on the PU or whomever. But the point stands that they weren't banned, players found a way to perform better (just like players have in the past), and that's why we're in the situation we're in now.

Fay Vincent banned steroids on June 7, 1991 in a memo entitled "Baseball's Drug Policy and Prevention Program". Google it and you'll easily find a link to download the pdf. Following is the pertinent excerpt:

The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players and personnel is strictly prohibited...

...The prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription.

Enforcement is a different matter altogether...

[ledzepp8]

Fay Vincent banned steroids on June 7, 1991 in a memo entitled "Baseball's Drug Policy and Prevention Program". Google it and you'll easily find a link to download the pdf. Following is the pertinent excerpt:

Enforcement is a different matter altogether...

Exactly right. I've never gotten the "they weren't banned" argument. They have been illegal in this country for a very long time. I doubt there's a specific clause detailing rules against murder, rape, or kidnapping but we know they're illegal.

[radar303]

That was a game of the week on Saturday aft. Even at the time everyone knew that Perry was cheating... along with the Niekros, Randy Jones and many others.

[OFFNY]

That was a game of the week on Saturday aft.

Even at the time everyone knew that Perry was cheating... along with the Niekros, Randy Jones and many others.

Did you see that game, too ??? When I came home from the parade, Willie Horton was in the batter's box in the mid-to-late innings. I saw the remainder of the game in our bedroom on the extra 13" TV set that we had.

[Tony-OH]

It's truly unbelievable. All my life people have told me I have a good memory, but none of us have &$@! on Jim Palmer. And he is 67.

Even elephants go, "F me, that Palmer guy as a hell of a memory."

[weams]

That was a game of the week on Saturday aft. Even at the time everyone knew that Perry was cheating... along with the Niekros, Randy Jones and many others.

Greg Maddux

Different type of cheating.

Mickey or Sudden Sam chugging a handful of greenies to stay awake was not the same either.