Jim Johnson Today, 2013

[Can_of_corn]

Yup, I can read stats too. Please tell me who would be a better option and if you say O'Day or Hunter, I'm going to just shake my head. The splits make it obvious that neither is as good of a choice.

Again, a pitcher that gives up very, very few extra base hits and throws a lot of ground balls is not nearly as beholden to the normal WHIP numbers as a guy like Hunter. If he pitches badly, I'm all for raking on the guy, but so many people just look at results and box scores rather than what happened. JJ was fine tonight and the Orioles won yet there are three threads complaining about him again. It is ridiculous.

He'll be gone soon enough and I'm afraid I'll get a chance to say "I told you so" unfortunately. We're lucky to have this guy on our side. That took serious guts tonight. I can't believe most people can't see that.

I am an advocate of not having a defined closer. Like I already said I had no issue with JJ being used tonight. I have an issue with Buck putting him into almost any game that qualifies a save opportunity.

[25 Nuggets]

One more thing. Could be worse. We could have Fernando Rodney.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/gametracker/live/MLB_20130809_TB@LAD

[Malike]

Can you imagine the uproar if we gave up 7 runs in the last 3 innings to lose a 6-0 lead including 4 in the 9th? There would be posts all over about how "good" teams simply don't do things like that. LOL

Yeah, I'm sure that no Tampa fans are posting the exact same thing about their team after this loss. Fan is short for Fanatic. Fans over-react, its what they do, the highs are high and the lows are low. If only everyone could be completely zen about their favorite sport, what a calm and peacefull existence it would be.

Rational Tampa Fans:

how many more games rodney .... DFA now !!!!

After an atrocious loss like that, winning ONE game in this series will be nothing short of a miracle.

Sure glad they don't over-react the way us O's fans do.

[howboutthoseos]

I am an advocate of not having a defined closer. Like I already said I had no issue with JJ being used tonight. I have an issue with Buck putting him into almost any game that qualifies a save opportunity.

Serious question -- are there examples of good teams that have done this and had it work really well? Esp during the "closer" era (when I think managers have to take into account expectations and egos, etc., in managing their personnel)?

[Can_of_corn]

Serious question -- are there examples of good teams that have done this and had it work really well? Esp during the "closer" era (when I think managers have to take into account expectations and egos, etc., in managing their personnel)?

Nope, group think is in full effect. Until someone comes in and changes the paradigm every manager is going to act the same.

Have you heard anything about JJ having an ego that wouldn't allow him to deal with someone else getting a save opportunity?

[howboutthoseos]

Nope, group think is in full effect. Until someone comes in and changes the paradigm every manager is going to act the same.

Have you heard anything about JJ having an ego that wouldn't allow him to deal with someone else getting a save opportunity?

No -- but I have to think it's a reality of managing in today's day and age -- even low-ego guys can get bummed/offended/etc if they perceive they are under-valued. Could happen in any line of work.

I'm wondering if this concept is like what people say about socialism (not trying to be political -- just an analogy) -- some people think it sounds great in the classroom... then when it doesn't work in real life, they say, "well, it just wasn't tried in its purest form."

I've leaned in your direction on this on occasion, but now it strikes me as something that sounds great in theory. But in actuality, closer-by-committee is usually something only bad teams try, and you never hear about it actually working. Thats why I was asking if there are any examples of success.

[Can_of_corn]

No -- but I have to think it's a reality of managing in today's day and age -- even low-ego guys can get bummed/offended/etc if they perceive they are under-valued. Could happen in any line of work.

I'm wondering if this concept is like what people say about socialism (not trying to be political -- just an analogy) -- some people think it sounds great in the classroom... then when it doesn't work in real life, they say, "well, it just wasn't tried in its purest form."

I've leaned in your direction on this on occasion, but now it strikes me as something that sounds great in theory. But in actuality, closer-by-committee is usually something only bad teams try, and you never hear about it actually working. Thats why I was asking if there are any examples of success.

How likely is it to succeed if only "bad" teams try it?

The Red Sox have had three different "closers" this season: Hanrahan, Bailey and Uehara does it appear to be negatively effecting their season?

[howboutthoseos]

How likely is it to succeed if only "bad" teams try it?

The Red Sox have had three different "closers" this season: Hanrahan, Bailey and Uehara does it appear to be negatively effecting their season?

A) Maybe there's a reason only "bad" teams try it? Thats why I was asking for examples of good teams doing it successfully.

B) They haven't really tried closer by committee -- just tried three different defined closers. It's never been a night-to-night, let's-see-how-the-matchups-play-out scenario like you're advocating.

[Can_of_corn]

A) Maybe there's a reason only "bad" teams try it? Thats why I was asking for examples of good teams doing it successfully.

B) They haven't really tried closer by committee -- just tried three different defined closers. It's never been a night-to-night, let's-see-how-the-matchups-play-out scenario like you're advocating.

Right but they have had three different pitchers saving games in the 9th, so they obviously have the personal to do it.

Are you trying to say that if Hanrahan had stayed healthy everything would have collapsed if Bailey or Uehara had been brought into a game in a save situation?

I think that is nonsense. (yes I know Bailey was only marginally effective)

As for your first point, it is pretty uncommon for even "bad" teams to try it. As I stated earlier the group think is strong.

[howboutthoseos]

Right but they have had three different pitchers saving games in the 9th, so they obviously have the personal to do it.

Are you trying to say that if Hanrahan had stayed healthy everything would have collapsed if Bailey or Uehara had been brought into a game in a save situation?

I think that is nonsense. (yes I know Bailey was only marginally effective)

As for your first point, it is pretty uncommon for even "bad" teams to try it. As I stated earlier the group think is strong.

No -- and I don't need to say that -- my point re: Boston is that it's not an example of a team actually trying what you're advocating.

Re: bad teams, it seems like there should at least be examples of bad teams getting slightly better (in pitching/relieving measurements, esp in the 9th inning) when switching from closers to closers-by-committee. It just seems like the theory would be a lot stronger if its advocates could point to examples of it actually working, even in imperfect laboratories.

[UpstateNYfan]

My opinion:

The anti-JJ stance on here is bordering on absurd. He didn't pitch bad at all tonight and I can't believe anyone watching the game would think he did. It took 2 singles and a walk to score a single run. The walk was well pitched to one of the top 5 hitters in the league. We should be ecstatic that batters can only get one base efforts at most against him. Doubles and HR kill relief pitchers. He isn't giving those up.

The effort to get out of a 1st and 2nd, no outs, tie game, bottom of the 9th, 41K in the stands was outstanding. He threw great pitches to the last three batters.

Hunter's outing was a walk in the park and some of us you think he did something. The inning led off with a back up catcher pinch hitting that had zero bat speed against a team that was just demoralized by a 3 run top of the inning.

BTW, Mariano give up a 2 run, 2 out, 2 strike homer to tie the game at home tonight to blow his 4th save and 2nd in a row. Both teams have good players folks. Perfection shouldn't be expected.

I think you have the most objective rational here on this thread. I disagree that the first pitch was a good pitch that gave up the lead off hit. I just believe that JJ far too often doesn't get his game face on until there is a potential for trouble. Walks batters on four pitches, hits batters when he is way ahead in counts, etc. He does squirm out of those situations for the most part.

What did Weaver call Stanhouse? Full pack?? I still picture him in the corner of the dugout looking like a little smokehouse when Stanhouse pitched. Guess you can't use Full Pack II today, maybe Tums.

There will always be over reaction when he blows one. It is a tough job mentally, not overly more physical than any reliever. Many burn out pretty quickly. Not a job to be done by committee IMO. He's exceeded my expectations, but not easy to watch.

[mrbig1]

It is very rare when JJ gets them 1-2-3 in the 9th. How many wins has he cost our starters? Enough is enough.

[El Gordo]

Say what you want about JJ, I'm glad we have him and not Rodney. I like the way our pen works. The best RP IMO is O'Day, and he is being used as a fireman. I prefer that to him closing. He comes in in tight spots. Of the rest of the bunch, I feel more comfortable with JJ closing. Closer by committee is a crack pot idea. I doesn't work for a number of reasons. Not every one has the temperment to do it, just like not everyone has the temperament to be a good pinch hitter or DH. Guys need to get their head ready for the spot they are going to be used in. They can't be sitting around waiting for Buck to play RP roulette. The reason managers don't go to closer by committee is not because of ego's or group think, it is simply that knowing their role gets the best results.

[tntoriole]

Say what you want about JJ, I'm glad we have him and not Rodney. I like the way our pen works. The best RP IMO is O'Day, and he is being used as a fireman. I prefer that to him closing. He comes in in tight spots. Of the rest of the bunch, I feel more comfortable with JJ closing. Closer by committee is a crack pot idea. I doesn't work for a number of reasons. Not every one has the temperment to do it, just like not everyone has the temperament to be a good pinch hitter or DH. Guys need to get their head ready for the spot they are going to be used in. They can't be sitting around waiting for Buck to play RP roulette. The reason managers don't go to closer by committee is not because of ego's or group think, it is simply that knowing their role gets the best results.

Agreed. Exactly. We are fortunate to have JJ in the role. It could be Buddy Groom or Kevin Gregg or Armando Benitez or Jorge Julio, for God's sake.

[Can_of_corn]

Say what you want about JJ, I'm glad we have him and not Rodney. I like the way our pen works. The best RP IMO is O'Day, and he is being used as a fireman. I prefer that to him closing. He comes in in tight spots. Of the rest of the bunch, I feel more comfortable with JJ closing. Closer by committee is a crack pot idea. I doesn't work for a number of reasons. Not every one has the temperment to do it, just like not everyone has the temperament to be a good pinch hitter or DH. Guys need to get their head ready for the spot they are going to be used in. They can't be sitting around waiting for Buck to play RP roulette. The reason managers don't go to closer by committee is not because of ego's or group think, it is simply that knowing their role gets the best results.

So are you saying that no manager noticed that Jason Grilli had the temperament to close for his first ten season (5 saves total) or that Jason Grilli has an epiphany at 36 and suddenly developed the proper temperament (30 for 31 in 2013)?