What does Nick's departure say to the other players who we may want to retain?

[tntoriole]

Where is the evidence that Nick was willing to give a "hometown" discount or a discount of any type? Did he and his agent want four years from the beginning at 44 million and they were going to try and get it from whomever would give it. Then it seems that Nick was offended that DD decided not to go there or maybe even decided to rein back in an offer that Nick had not accepted (I don't know). What is clear is that Nick trashed him and damaged the organization by his actions to the media and to players left behind. Which left quite a bad taste in my mouth for someone that I was a very big fan of during his time here.

[Tony-OH]

I think we're seeing examples of what I meant now. I want to be clear: I'm OK with the fact that we didn't re-sign Nick. But I'm also not surprised at some of the consequences in terms of how some of his former teammates are reacting.

Davis' comments about winning just reconfirms that you don't need to be a rocket scientist to be a baseball player. Guess what, the Orioles want to see if Davis is worth committing resources towards in the future before committing anything to him. For a guy who hit .198 last year, he might want to be more concerned with own production and not be concerned about whether the Orioles are "committed to winning". The Orioles have a budget and they have won within that budget the last three years.

This reaction over Markakis' departure, even if that's just part of the issue, just goes to show too many guys on this team are talking emotionally and not professionally. That's disappointing.

[waroriole]

Davis' comments about winning just reconfirms that you don't need to be a rocket scientist to be a baseball player. Guess what, the Orioles want to see if Davis is worth committing resources towards in the future before committing anything to him. For a guy who hit .198 last year, he might want to be more concerned with own production and not be concerned about whether the Orioles are "committed to winning". The Orioles have a budget and they have won within that budget the last three years.

This reaction over Markakis' departure, even if that's just part of the issue, just goes to show too many guys on this team are talking emotionally and not professionally. That's disappointing.

Agreed. Not bringing back Davis might be a sign that the team is committed to winning.

[JayThomas]

... just goes to show too many guys on this team are talking emotionally and not professionally. That's disappointing.

Agreed. I just wonder how much of this yapping is more related to the uncertainty of DD remaining with the club and DD's loyalty in general, and is only couched in the form of loyalty to Nick?

... and for a guy who performed like CD did last year and then GOT SUSPENDED FOR 50 GAMES, POSSIBLY COSTING US THE WS, he's got one serious credibility issue mouthing off about "committment to winning".

[Nevermore]

My worry is that the Orioles had a nice confluence of players who hit their prime at about the same time, and who were underpriced, but now that they are entering free agent eligibility, the O's simply can't afford to keep the majority of them unless they're willing to give at least a modest home team discount. And there are players who might be inclined to do that to keep the gang together, but when they perceive the organization as not showing a lot of loyalty to other players who were part of the core, they reciprocate by saying "fine then, I see how it is, I'll go where the money is best."

You can look at it a couple of different ways. On the one hand, if the O's can't afford to keep everyone, then Nick was a logical person to put limits on. He's a couple years older than some of the others, and has declined some. On the other hand, I continue to think that Nick meant more to his teammates than many people around here appreciate. He was the longest-tenured Oriole, he played hard and he played hurt, and he persevered through the hard years. I think when the O's let him go, some of the other players sort of said to themselves, "if they'll be cold-hearted with Nick, they'll do it with anyone, so I need to think just as coldly."

Horefully it will all work out. The Rays and A's have had a long run of success while not retaining a lot of major contributors once they hit free agency, and one can argue that it has to be that way. But there's no question that the future is very uncertain after 2015.

The most important part of this is: I continue to think that Nick meant more to his teammates than many people around here appreciate. He was the longest-tenured Oriole, he played hard and he played hurt, and he persevered through the hard years. I think when the O's let him go, some of the other players sort of said to themselves, "if they'll be cold-hearted with Nick, they'll do it with anyone, so I need to think just as coldly." Here is where you hit the nail on the head. Plus there was the issue that Os management pulled their 4-year offer off the table, offering just 3. There is an issue of trust here: what if Nick had accepted a 3 year deal, would O's management pulled that offer off the table and then offered just 2 years? I'm not saying that DD &Co. would have done that, but the possibility was there, or at least it was perceived to be there. It's almost as if some think that players should be loyal to the club, but club management (proportedy representing the club) doesn't have to reciprocate.

And this is where the concept of "team chemistry" fits in. Team chemistry isn't something that can be measured with any amount of sabermetrics. But it does exist. Yes, it can be argued that, like the As and the Rays, Os management can produce winners without retaining a lot of their core players. Being a fan of a team means (to me) being a fan of at least a core of players who are on that team. I root for players, not orange-and-black jerseys. I am one fan that doesn't believe that the Os have to operate like the As and Rays.

The SF Giants are a team that has a reputation of making efforts to retain most of their players. Giants' management was blind-sided by Pablo Sandoval claiming loyalty to the Giants and then, right after their 2014 WS victory, spurning a generous Giants' offer to skip off to the Red Sox. So it does go both ways. But with Nick Markakis, the feeling came through, even if unintentionally, that Os management wasn't that concerned with the past contributions of Nick but wanted him gone. There are good statistical reasons for wanting Nick gone. But the whole thing has definitely left a sour taste in my mouth. Aparently in the mouths of some of the Os players as well.

[Nevermore]

Agreed. I just wonder how much of this yapping is more related to the uncertainty of DD remaining with the club and DD's loyalty in general, and is only couched in the form of loyalty to Nick?

... and for a guy who performed like CD did last year and then GOT SUSPENDED FOR 50 GAMES, POSSIBLY COSTING US THE WS, he's got one serious credibility issue mouthing off about "committment to winning".

After all my talking about "loyalty" and "team chemistry", I have to say that you have definitely have some points here, not just about DD and whether or not he really wants to be with the Jays, but particularly with Chris Davis, his sub-par batting average, and particularly his 50 game suspension -- do these actions show a true committment to winning? In some ways, I wish that Os management had kept Markakis and had let Chris Davis go (non-tendered him).

[Redskins Rick]

After all my talking about "loyalty" and "team chemistry", I have to say that you have definitely have some points here, not just about DD and whether or not he really wants to be with the Jays, but particularly with Chris Davis, his sub-par batting average, and particularly his 50 game suspension -- do these actions show a true committment to winning? In some ways, I wish that Os management had kept Markakis and had let Chris Davis go (non-tendered him).

Then there would be several in OH up in arms and moaning and groaning the fact and we would have it's own 35+ page threads.

[mdbdotcom]

After all my talking about "loyalty" and "team chemistry", I have to say that you have definitely have some points here, not just about DD and whether or not he really wants to be with the Jays, but particularly with Chris Davis, his sub-par batting average, and particularly his 50 game suspension -- do these actions show a true committment to winning? In some ways, I wish that Os management had kept Markakis and had let Chris Davis go (non-tendered him).

CD's suspension was 25 games, not 50.

[Frobby]

Now JJ Hardy weighs in:

Hardy and center fielder Adam Jones, who dresses at the opposite end of the row, may question the wisdom of signing their extensions if the club is gutted by free agency. The Orioles weren't aggressive in replacing Nick Markakis and Nelson Cruz, counting on the returns of Wieters, Davis and third baseman Manny Machado to keep them in contention.

"Adam and I have both thought about that," Hardy said. "I know Adam thinks about it a lot. I mean, losing Nick was big. He was one of the guys out there every single day with us. Obviously, we want to win and the reason we signed our extensions is because we like it here and we like the guys who were around, so if everyone starts leaving, I don't know."

Players may be able to ease their anxiety by trusting the process. The Orioles don't spend big beyond raises for their arbitration-eligibles, but they've posted three straight winning seasons and twice made the playoffs.

"Yeah, but it's with the same guys, you know?" Hardy said. "If those guys end up leaving, then I don't know. The guys we've been winning with are the guys that are here, and if they leave, I don't know. At some point, you've got to trust who's in your clubhouse at this moment and why we're winning."

While Jones is more inclined to voice his opinion to management, Hardy said he hasn't expressed his concerns to executive vice president Dan Duquette and manager Buck Showalter.

"When I signed, I trusted them that we were going to be doing everything we could to keep the guys who are helping us win. And it was more of a trust than me going and asking them, 'Hey, are we going to do this or that?' " Hardy said.

"It's not really my place. It was just more of a trust thing, I guess."

http://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2015/03/no-longer-faced-with-free-agency-hardy-wonders-if-os-can-extend-successful-run.html

Notice that there have been a lot of comments by key players about losing Nick, and almost none about losing Cruz. Cruz was great last year, but he was hired help. Nick was the oldest brother in the family.

I want to make it clear again that I'm OK with the decision not to match the Braves' offer or do enough to keep Nick here. I'm just saying that decision had foreseeable consequences beyond the dollars he's be paid and his production on the field. And now we're seeing those consequences play out in terms of its impact on other key players.

[Redskins Rick]

Now JJ Hardy weighs in:

http://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2015/03/no-longer-faced-with-free-agency-hardy-wonders-if-os-can-extend-successful-run.html

Notice that there have been a lot of comments by key players about losing Nick, and almost none about losing Cruz. Cruz was great last year, but he was hired help. Nick was the oldest brother in the family.

I want to make it clear again that I'm OK with the decision not to match the Braves' offer or do enough to keep Nick here. I'm just saying that decision had foreseeable consequences beyond the dollars he's be paid and his production on the field. And now we're seeing those consequences play out in terms of its impact on other key players.

Good post and point.

I remember some of this was discussed last year when we talked about the need to resign Nick and what he brings to this team.

At the time, lots of posters in OH was, damn the emotions and look at the metrics, it's time for Nick to go away.

Some of those posters are now talking clubhouse chemistry and how bad this decision was and sends the wrong signal to the guys here.

Some people want to have it both ways.

[Frobby]

Good post and point.

I remember some of this was discussed last year when we talked about the need to resign Nick and what he brings to this team.

At the time, lots of posters in OH was, damn the emotions and look at the metrics, it's time for Nick to go away.

Some of those posters are now talking clubhouse chemistry and how bad this decision was and sends the wrong signal to the guys here.

Some people want to have it both ways.

It wasn't going to be an easy decision either way.

[weams]

It wasn't going to be an easy decision either way.

This is very true. I had Nick,s comments to Nightengale explained to me in context and it appears that his strongest anger was to how somethings were portrayed in the press. I still think he was a good Oriole.

[Slappy]

Nick wanted to play in Baltimore, did a lot of community work here, stuck out some difficult years here, and was unceremoniously pushed aside when he had a correctable medical problem. That's how the players see it.

Nick was a declining player making more than he should, and was aging and unlikely to provide value at the contract he got. That's how management sees it.

The fans, some see one side or the other. Some see both.

You can argue we turn into the Phillies if we keep resigning everyone at any cost. Or you can argue we turn into the Rays if we don't resign anyone.

No good answers here, and both Duquette and the players have not taken the high road with the media. Duquette's "disloyal" flirtation with Toronto probably didn't help.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wildcard]

It's very interesting that DD has structured the O's contracts so that eleven players become free agents in one year. That is not the traditional thing to do. I definitely want to see Dan stay through this coming off season to see how he keeps the O's contending with all these free agents.

The talk of the players shows their concern for the ability of team to continue the winning culture into the future. Certainly that is a concern of Jones and Hardy would have signed on to stay.

I realize and the players probably realize that there has to be change from year to year to bring in younger players. But too much of that all at once could well affect the teams culture and ability to win.

Dan is smarter that I am. He has the resume to prove it. I am just sitting here wondering how he is going to pull it off.

[Redskins Rick]

This is very true. I had Nick,s comments to Nightengale explained to me in context and it appears that his strongest anger was to how somethings were portrayed in the press. I still think he was a good Oriole.

I hope at some point when Nick's career is over, we see his name up in the Oriole HOF.